almoore Posted July 9, 2017 Share #181 Posted July 9, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) The other thing that's interesting (and here I'm showing my ignorance) is that I understood that Leica liked the pixel pitch (?) or perhaps pixels per mm of the 24MP full frame and 36MP for the S; so why is 24MP on APS-C now acceptable? If there has been a shift, either in Leica or in technology that makes increased pixel density acceptable, will we see an increase in MP in the M & SL full frame cameras and the S? Isn't this just about the 24MP (Sony?) APS-C sensor being the best currently available? The whole notion of 24MP being the 'sweet spot' for a full frame sensor is just internet chatter - there's no special voodoo to that pixel pitch. As Sony has pushed the resolution higher on their full frame sensors, there's been no corresponding loss in dynamic range or high ISO performance. The current 42MP sensor that's used in the A7Rii and RXIRii is as good as it gets for full frame. Almost certainly, future Leica cameras will have higher MP sensors, or at least the option (Sony manages to sell the A7 series with three different MP variations) for those who want larger files. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 9, 2017 Posted July 9, 2017 Hi almoore, Take a look here SL Price Reduction. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
IkarusJohn Posted July 9, 2017 Share #182 Posted July 9, 2017 I would like to think that Leica have learned from their past problems which were caused by their being dependend on a single provider, starting with the DMR. Yep, but that wasn't my point, really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted July 9, 2017 Share #183 Posted July 9, 2017 How is it outdated? Same resolution as Fuji XT2 and nearly the same as the brand new A9 and it has a GPS built in. Only the SL and GFX have noticeably more resolution. Gordon The Visoflex has a resolution of 1.4 MP which (if I recall correctly) is the same as my old X-Pro1. I would be very surprised if the X-T2 and A9 didn't have EVFs of more than 2MP. And probably other characteristics like refresh rate, etc play a role as well. That being said, I am 100% sure that as soon as all M10 and TL2 pre-orders have been rolled out Leica will miraculously have an updated Visoflex available that is much much better and costs slightly more, I am guessing $700-800... So I expect the antiquated Visoflex will only be around for another 1-2 years... I agree with you on the GPS. That is extremely useful for vacation, hiking, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted July 9, 2017 Share #184 Posted July 9, 2017 sony a9 EVF >> EVF: 1.3 cm (0.5 type) 3,686K-dot Quad VGA color OLED 100% coverage, 0.78x magnification, -4.0 to +3.0m-1 diopter, Approx. 23mm eyepoint from the eyepiece lens, 18.5mm from the eyepiece frame at -1m-1 (CIPA standard), STD 60fps / HI 120fps, eye sensor fuji xpro-2 EVF>> 0.48-in TFT color viewfinder Approx 2.36 millions dots(4:3) Coverage of viewing area vs. capturing area : approx. 100%Eyepoint : approx 16mm(from the rear end of the camera's eyepiece) Diopter adjustment : -4 to +2m-1Magnification : 0.59x with 50 mm lens (35mm equivalent) at infinity and diopter set to -1.0m-1Diagonal angle of view : approx 29.1°(Horizontal angle of view : approx 24.4°)Built-in eye sensor The Visoflex has a resolution of 1.4 MP which (if I recall correctly) is the same as my old X-Pro1. I would be very surprised if the X-T2 and A9 didn't have EVFs of more than 2MP. And probably other characteristics like refresh rate, etc play a role as well. That being said, I am 100% sure that as soon as all M10 and TL2 pre-orders have been rolled out Leica will miraculously have an updated Visoflex available that is much much better and costs slightly more, I am guessing $700-800... So I expect the antiquated Visoflex will only be around for another 1-2 years... I agree with you on the GPS. That is extremely useful for vacation, hiking, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted July 9, 2017 Share #185 Posted July 9, 2017 The current 42MP sensor that's used in the A7Rii and RXIRii is as good as it gets for full frame. Agreed. I see much less moire and aliasing in fine feather detail with the a7rII's 42MP vs. the 24MP of either the a7II or SL(601). I'd like to see more MP in the next SL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 9, 2017 Share #186 Posted July 9, 2017 Isn't this just about the 24MP (Sony?) APS-C sensor being the best currently available? The whole notion of 24MP being the 'sweet spot' for a full frame sensor is just internet chatter - there's no special voodoo to that pixel pitch. As Sony has pushed the resolution higher on their full frame sensors, there's been no corresponding loss in dynamic range or high ISO performance. The current 42MP sensor that's used in the A7Rii and RXIRii is as good as it gets for full frame. Almost certainly, future Leica cameras will have higher MP sensors, or at least the option (Sony manages to sell the A7 series with three different MP variations) for those who want larger files. you are right there. Panasonic, which is heavily involved in Leica's sensor technology, has pushed their MFT sensor to an excellent 20 MP, which corresponds to 80 MP on full frame. Of course things like image stabilisation are not equal, but 40 MP or more should be no problem Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Warwick Posted July 9, 2017 Share #187 Posted July 9, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) you are right there. Panasonic, which is heavily involved in Leica's sensor technology, has pushed their MFT sensor to an excellent 20 MP, which corresponds to 80 MP on full frame. Of course things like image stabilisation are not equal, but 40 MP or more should be no problem Is sensor technology now at a level where Leica would be happy to shrink the pixel size and increase MP count? Arguments for not doing it in the past were allegedly 24mp full frame (36mp in the S) being the above mentioned sweet spot for dynamic range, higher ISO and diffraction. But with apparently 2-3 stops better ISO on the M10, things have gotten better on that front. Presumably so has DR. But diffraction - I assume that simply can't be overcome? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted July 9, 2017 Share #188 Posted July 9, 2017 I'm not sure whether the 'sensor' bit of the technology is improving ..... or more likely the ability to amplify the signal without the other electrical noise in the chip degrading the output. What is really needed is a quantum leap in sensor sensitivity ....... not the creeping improvement in suppressing the noise ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted July 9, 2017 Share #189 Posted July 9, 2017 The Visoflex has a resolution of 1.4 MP which (if I recall correctly) is the same as my old X-Pro1. I would be very surprised if the X-T2 and A9 didn't have EVFs of more than 2MP. And probably other characteristics like refresh rate, etc play a role as well. That being said, I am 100% sure that as soon as all M10 and TL2 pre-orders have been rolled out Leica will miraculously have an updated Visoflex available that is much much better and costs slightly more, I am guessing $700-800... So I expect the antiquated Visoflex will only be around for another 1-2 years... I agree with you on the GPS. That is extremely useful for vacation, hiking, etc. I was wrong on the A9. I incorrectly thought QUAD VGA was 2.5MP. However the current 020 Visoflex is 2.4 MP, not 1.4 MP. 1.4 was the original, which is the EVF2, ala the one used in the Olympus EM5. That's not the current one. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted July 9, 2017 Share #190 Posted July 9, 2017 Hi Gordon, What's the blackout like with the 020 Visoflex on the M10? Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted July 10, 2017 Share #191 Posted July 10, 2017 Under a second and ever so slightly longer than when using live view on the rear screen. Longer than it is with the same 020 on the T. Significantly better than the EVF 2 on the M. Not much help. Sorry.... Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted July 10, 2017 Share #192 Posted July 10, 2017 Under a second and ever so slightly longer than when using live view on the rear screen. Longer than it is with the same 020 on the T. Significantly better than the EVF 2 on the M. Not much help. Sorry.... Gordon I was afraid you might say that. With the M(240) using the EVF-2 (I think that was what it was called), when the upgraded EVF was released by Olympus, the excuse given for the lack of future compatibility was that the processor couldn't cope with the new EVF. The 020 EVF on the T is, as I understand it, a Leica specified item rather than rebadged item sourced from another supplier. I sold my T and 020 EVF because of the blackout - I just found it unusable (I was trying to take pictures of my son kite-surfing, it has to be said). My concern is that the blackout is a function of the EVF itself, rather than something that can be fixed in the camera with a firmware update. I'm not sure that i could accept a longer blackout on the M10, or even a similar blackout on the new TL2. I appreciate this exchange has gone way off topic, but I would like to understand where Leica is going with the EVF. It is fantastic, built in, on the SL - great resolution and minimal blackout (really not that much different to an SLR); I didn't mind the resolution on the 020 unit, but the blackout was too long. I'm surprised Leica didn't put more into offering a better unit for the M10, and the news (leaked) that there is no built in EVF on the TL2 makes me wonder. Why, when it has the best EVF in the business, is Leica doing such a poor job in its EVF offerings for other systems? I just don't get it. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted July 10, 2017 Share #193 Posted July 10, 2017 Why, when it has the best EVF in the business, is Leica doing such a poor job in its EVF offerings for other systems? I just don't get it. Join the club... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted July 10, 2017 Share #194 Posted July 10, 2017 What is really needed is a quantum leap in sensor sensitivity ....... not the creeping improvement in suppressing the noise ..... There's been a huge leap in sensor performance over the last five years. At higher ISOs the latest Sony sensors are much better than those used by Leica (and Canon) in every way, not just lower noise levels but also in terms of dynamic range and colour response. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted July 10, 2017 Share #195 Posted July 10, 2017 I was afraid you might say that. With the M(240) using the EVF-2 (I think that was what it was called), when the upgraded EVF was released by Olympus, the excuse given for the lack of future compatibility was that the processor couldn't cope with the new EVF. The 020 EVF on the T is, as I understand it, a Leica specified item rather than rebadged item sourced from another supplier. I sold my T and 020 EVF because of the blackout - I just found it unusable (I was trying to take pictures of my son kite-surfing, it has to be said). My concern is that the blackout is a function of the EVF itself, rather than something that can be fixed in the camera with a firmware update. I'm not sure that i could accept a longer blackout on the M10, or even a similar blackout on the new TL2. I appreciate this exchange has gone way off topic, but I would like to understand where Leica is going with the EVF. It is fantastic, built in, on the SL - great resolution and minimal blackout (really not that much different to an SLR); I didn't mind the resolution on the 020 unit, but the blackout was too long. I'm surprised Leica didn't put more into offering a better unit for the M10, and the news (leaked) that there is no built in EVF on the TL2 makes me wonder. Why, when it has the best EVF in the business, is Leica doing such a poor job in its EVF offerings for other systems? I just don't get it. John The EVF response times on the T have improved dramatically with the latest firmware upgrades......... It's not like the SL but it's pretty OK. Less that half a second. Not quite up to my XPro2 but pretty close. Hopefully the TL2 is better again. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
foto2021 Posted July 10, 2017 Share #196 Posted July 10, 2017 I just called the DC Leica Store that I purchased it from and they refunded me. Phew. Although now I'm wondering if an SL2 is coming soon. Does anyone know relatively how quickly a new model is announced after a price drop? Don't worry, your bargain price SL will be no less of a great camera if an SL2 is introduced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted July 10, 2017 Share #197 Posted July 10, 2017 boy this thread has gone a long way ..... getting back to price discount, when I first read about it I thought is was an FX adjustment, but I see lower prices in Europe and UK ... right now I can get the same camera in London for about $1200 less (thanks to pound depreciating against the euro, thank you brexit!). Anyway, the point is this appears to be an inventory move. How sure can we be abount an SL2 if Leica is still searching for the price point to move out current production. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted July 10, 2017 Share #198 Posted July 10, 2017 There's been a huge leap in sensor performance over the last five years. At higher ISOs the latest Sony sensors are much better than those used by Leica (and Canon) in every way, not just lower noise levels but also in terms of dynamic range and colour response. I have no idea why you participate in the Leica forum if you so passionately believe them to be so inferior. I don't know why, but those supposedly superior Sony sensors in my Sonys never produced as nice a photograph as I get from the Leica SL and M-D. At which point, I really don't give a darn how good they allegedly are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert E Posted July 10, 2017 Share #199 Posted July 10, 2017 I just called the DC Leica Store that I purchased it from and they refunded me. Phew. Wow, that's awesome! I hope you went back there and took a dozen donuts for them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted July 10, 2017 Share #200 Posted July 10, 2017 There's been a huge leap in sensor performance over the last five years. At higher ISOs the latest Sony sensors are much better than those used by Leica (and Canon) in every way, not just lower noise levels but also in terms of dynamic range and colour response. If you compare sensors in the same MP and size class the Sony sensors aren't vastly superior to the current batch of Leica 24MP 35mm sensors. Certainly not the one in the M10, which I think might be superior to all the current Sony 24MP sensors in both noise and DR. And the SL and Q sensors are very competitive. There's no special magic in the A72 sensor compared to the one in the SL and the new A9 sensor deliberately sacrifices a bit of DR for performance. The A7S2 and A7R2 are certainly special but both of those aren't the same class of sensor as the SL. One built purely for resolution and DR and one for high ISO at the expense of resolution. Anyway, I just don't like Sony's skin tones with the A7xxx sensors. And that, of course, ignores the real issue. Leica lenses work better on Leica cameras. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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