Fully electronic shutter images

[steppenw0lf]

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Fully electronic shutter - more popularly called "silent shutter" - is a hot new feature.

In other mirrorless cameras (with EFCS instead of fully electronic shutter) there were several issues, with artificial light sources, fast speeds (faster than 1/500) and so on. I wonder if the SL has similar limitations or is perfect from A to Z....

So it could be interesting to collect here images taken with the FES (fully electric shutter) of the SL.

Please add your examples. Thanks.

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[scott kirkpatrick]

There are two effects to understand.  One is that with electronic lights (LEDs and Flourescents) the slow implementation of the electronic shutter means that the light level fluctuates during the course of an exposure.  The effect is strongest with a single bulb, weaker with several bulbs (I guess their fluctuations at some multiple of 50 or 60 hz don't synchronize and the overlap reduces the banding.  It has been claimed that small changes in shutter speed like 1/40 to 1/50 sec makes the problem go away, at least when shooting video.  Has anyone taken a look at this?

 

The second effect is "rolling shutter" stretching of an image or "jello effect" when objects move and the vertical motion of the electronic shutter stretches them out.  I've seen examples of this.  I can't post for a few more days, so let's see examples from others.

[LocalHero1953]

Because this was one of the big changes with this firmware, it got a lot of attention during beta testing. I don't recall any behaviour different from other cameras with electronic shutters. I certainly experienced banding in certain artificial lighting, and I could create distortion of moving objects. But these are the inevitable consequence of a shutter that reads out over a period of about 1/30s (my best guess from clunky tests), even though the individual pixel rows capture photons over a much shorter interval. I have seen more accurate tests reported by Jim Kasson with an oscilloscope and, I think, a Sony A7Rii, which showed similar behaviour. Until there is a true global electronic shutter (one that reads every pixel at the same time), we will continue to have these limitations. We will just have to learn to work within them. I am very pleased we have got a workable silent shutter at normal shutter speeds (will the M10 ever get one?)

[BJN]

I have tried the electronic shutter under LED bulbs (Hue), and there is banding at all shutter speeds, some worse than others, I did not find any shots that could be used!

[rgacpa]

Fully electronic shutter - more popularly called "silent shutter" - is a hot new feature.

In other mirrorless cameras (with EFCS instead of fully electronic shutter) there were several issues, with artificial light sources, fast speeds (faster than 1/500) and so on. I wonder if the SL has similar limitations or is perfect from A to Z....

So it could be interesting to collect here images taken with the FES (fully electric shutter) of the SL.

Please add your examples. Thanks.

I am new to the SL and am curious as to what shutter speed the e-shutter begins to work in place of the manual shutter. I have the e-shutter turned on in settings, and it seems (from zero noise) that it is operating at lower shutter speeds too! The current manual (for firmware 2.0) is really unbelievably confusing:

 

"Exposure times between 60 s1 and 1⁄8000 s are formed with the mechanical shutter. The electronic shutter function that can be connected as an option extends the range up to 1⁄6000 s."

 

Isn't 1/6000s slower than 1/8000s? So how do you get the e-shutter to function all the time? And is any harm to the camera hardware caused by using it all the time?

 

Thanks very much for help on this!

Bob

 

 

 

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[Peter E]

So how do you get the e-shutter to function all the time?

Thanks very much for help on this!

Bob

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Hi Bob,

 

Instal the just released firmware v3 and you can use e-shutter always if you want

I don't see a problem for the camera.

 

Regards

Peter

[Vogelweide]

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I am new to the SL and am curious as to what shutter speed the e-shutter begins to work in place of the manual shutter. I have the e-shutter turned on in settings, and it seems (from zero noise) that it is operating at lower shutter speeds too! The current manual (for firmware 2.0) is really unbelievably confusing:

 

"Exposure times between 60 s1 and 1⁄8000 s are formed with the mechanical shutter. The electronic shutter function that can be connected as an option extends the range up to 1⁄6000 s."

 

Isn't 1/6000s slower than 1/8000s? So how do you get the e-shutter to function all the time? And is any harm to the camera hardware caused by using it all the time?

 

Thanks very much for help on this!

Bob

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

correct is that it extends the range up to 1/16.000 s.

[helged]

I am far from an expert on the use of the Electronic Shutter (ES) - so experts are encouraged to chime in - but nevertheless:

 

Scenes lit by fluourescent bulbs that cycle at 50 or 60 Hz - and with the ES set to shutter speeds that differ from multiples of the light frequency - will show banding (here and here). And yes, I have done some in-house tests showing the same...

 

What about movements? As nicely described and depicted 

 (from 5:30), the scanning of conventional ES, line-by-line from top to bottom of the sensor, generates tilting of horizontal features when there is a relative movement between the sensor's longest side (the sensor's 'horizontal' direction) and the scene. 

 

A quick test demonstrates the latter: If the camera is held vertically and is swept upwards at approximately constant speed during the image capture, horizontal features will be tilted downwards from left to right.

 

The two images below illustrate this effect, showing a clotheshorse on a terrace when the SL is held vertically and is swept upwards.

 

The image with the horizontal lines is obtained when the mechanical shutter activated (a 'normal capture'); the image with the tilted lines shows the result when the ES is activated. The shutter speed was 1/1250 sec for both images and the upward sweeping of the camera was about the same. Similar results were obtained for all shutter speeds tested, in my case ranging from 1/60 sec to 1/4000 sec. The tilt angle when the ES was activated was about the same for all tested shutter speeds, so the tilting is independent of the shutter speed used, but indicative of the relative difference between the upward sweep of the camera and the reading speed off the sensor.

 

I have not been able to see this tilting effect in 'ordinary' captures with the ES activated, but the issue is there and it will show up - it's just a question of (unfavourable) conditions, I believe... Only much improved reading speed off the sensor - or truly global ES - can eliminate this behaviour. 

 

Not a big issue - likely - but something to keep in mind  . 

 

The ES is great for conferences, concerts, churches, wild life, etc. But the downsides should be kept in mind, so careful checking of the image preview should be default. At least until one fully understands the limitations/downsides of using the ES.

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Edited June 2, 2017 by helged

[drrj90]

What is the advantage to have the electronic shutter on at all or should a person have it on at all times? I never knew the real reason behind an electronic shutter. Thank you

[jankap]

Electronic shutters are noiseless!

Animals, concerts, etc.

I have a Sony QX1 with an electronic shutter, but it beeps. The same with my iPhone.

Jan

[lct]

Just chiming in. I have no SL but my Japanese cameras work in silent mode most of the time and i have got issues in less than one per thousand pictures so far. FWIW.

[lct]

[...] I never knew the real reason behind an electronic shutter [...]

 

Silence, lack of vibration.

[steppenw0lf]

After several days there are still questions left. So maybe someone with more experience can add a few examples.

The rolling shutter is well-known and can quite easily be controlled. Sometimes it is even funny to use it. (I wouldn't mind more examples).

 

But regarding banding and other possible discolorings or vignetting I could not get a deeper insight.

Usually I simply had none of that. What did I do wrong ?  I could not successfully recreate it .....

I hope my strategy is clear - I would like to be able to force it, so that afterwards I know exactly which situation to avoid in real shootings. I would like to use FES for weddings and small family events and do not want to come back with problematic images.

 

Or maybe also Dan Cook could tell if FES works ok in his "low light" shootings in bars and concert halls. (It is not clear if he ever used it).

 

Please could you add examples how it looks on the SL ? Or add rules of thumb under which circumstances banding typically should occur.

[scott kirkpatrick]

I got some tilted light poles when panning horizontally with cars going by (at perfectly normal, in-city speeds) with the e-shutter and the 90-280.  The idea was to capture flags flapping on cars close to our independence day.  Here's one:

 

S1000240 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

 

I've also seen some banding in the background illumination when there is a single flourescent as a source.  Changing shutter speed a bit is supposed to help.  Video folks are used to dealing with this.  Multiple flourescents can fill this in as well.  Don't have a good example handy.

 

scott 

[frame-it]

the focus is on the traffic light ?interesting how the car doesn't look so warped

 

 

I got some tilted light poles when panning horizontally with cars going by (at perfectly normal, in-city speeds) with the e-shutter and the 90-280.  The idea was to capture flags flapping on cars close to our independence day.  Here's one:

 

S1000240 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

 

I've also seen some banding in the background illumination when there is a single flourescent as a source.  Changing shutter speed a bit is supposed to help.  Video folks are used to dealing with this.  Multiple flourescents can fill this in as well.  Don't have a good example handy.

 

scott 

[dancook]

After several days there are still questions left. So maybe someone with more experience can add a few examples.

The rolling shutter is well-known and can quite easily be controlled. Sometimes it is even funny to use it. (I wouldn't mind more examples).

 

But regarding banding and other possible discolorings or vignetting I could not get a deeper insight.

Usually I simply had none of that. What did I do wrong ?  I could not successfully recreate it .....

I hope my strategy is clear - I would like to be able to force it, so that afterwards I know exactly which situation to avoid in real shootings. I would like to use FES for weddings and small family events and do not want to come back with problematic images.

 

Or maybe also Dan Cook could tell if FES works ok in his "low light" shootings in bars and concert halls. (It is not clear if he ever used it).

 

Please could you add examples how it looks on the SL ? Or add rules of thumb under which circumstances banding typically should occur.

 

Any type of shot when you start panning is probably going to get rolling shutter if you're using electronic shutter.

Or often in street if I take a photo whilst walking past a subject.. no good for eshutter

 

I used to use the silent shutter on the A7S frequently, this would happen.

Vertical banding in this image because the gentleman was walking towards a fluorescent lit walkway, processing I tried to diminish the effect - but i can still see it.

 

Mysterious Man by dancook1982, on Flickr

 

I am unlikely to risk electronic shutter at a wedding, I'd have to have a strong case for wanting to use it - since SL shutter is not offensive. I'd have to test it against artificial lights nearby, and it will also be dependent on the shutter speed as well - so it could look ok and then not..

Edited June 17, 2017 by dancook

[frame-it]

this scene actually looks nice with the dark banding

 

 

Any type of shot when you start panning is probably going to get rolling shutter if you're using electronic shutter.

I used to use the silent shutter on the A7S frequently, this would happen.
Vertical banding in this image because the gentleman was walking towards a fluorescent lit walkway, processing I tried to diminish the effect - but i can still see it.

Mysterious Man by dancook1982, on Flickr

I am unlikely to risk electronic shutter at a wedding, I'd have to have a strong case for wanting to use it - since SL shutter is not offensive. I'd have to test it against artificial lights nearby, and it will also be dependent on the shutter speed as well - so it could look ok and then not..

[dancook]

this scene actually looks nice with the dark banding

Thanks, but I wouldn't count on eshutter banding to add creatively to your images heh

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[frame-it]

probably need some kind of flicker free lights if used at a wedding ?

[dancook]

Fully electronic shutter images.... I guess I needed some flicker free lights

 

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Edited July 1, 2017 by dancook