Horizontal lines on M10 at ISO 2500 plus hot pixels

[jaapv]

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I don't

[lm_user]

It is radiation-hardened.

 

http://www.techbriefs.com/component/content/article/ntb/features/feature-articles/23342

http://sensor radiation hardening

I learn something new every day. Cool stuff

[bancosydney]

I'm the OP. I always like to find out what happens in the end with these posts, so for those of you who are interested, this is it.

 

My dealer, good to his word, got me his next available M10 body after I returned the first one. This one is flawless in all respects and I've now used it for several weeks. It's a fantastic body and probably my favourite digital ever. I've shot a lot on Nikon dSLRs for many years (d200, d700, d800 --- all great cameras) and various compacts, plus a Sony a7, but the M10 seems to suit the way I photograph people best and the files are very robust, especially in the shadows. I like the overall look of the files better than the a7's shot with the same lenses, and I don't think it's just ray-angle issues; it's something about the colour and contrast that is beyond my technical competence to express.

 

I use full manual mode, pretty much exactly like an M6 or MP, but with the advantage of the very high ISOs of digital and the better M10 viewfinder. (I have had less success using aperture priority or auto ISO on the M10 than full manual --- unsurprisingly the centreweighted metering requires a lot more user interpretation than a Nikon matrix meter --- and I'm just used to full manual.) This works seamlessly in practice as I usually have one M film body with black and white (the last of my Neopan 400, alas), the M10 and two or sometimes three lenses in a small bag (I love the tiny size of the kit!). So I can swap between film and digital without any need to change my shooting workflow. Which was the whole point of getting the M digital body, ridiculously expensive as it is. Swapping cameras never quite worked for me with the film M / a7 pairing.

 

I've never much liked digital B and W before. The highlights usually don't look right to me, without enough shoulder, even when they don't actually clip. But looking at Sean Reid's work on his review site made me think I should be more open to it. I've liked the M10 Lightroom B and W conversions a lot. I don't know if they're intrinsically better than what you'd get out of another body but they do look good.

 

What I've liked the most about the camera and what has surprised me is how good lots of different glass looks on it. I've got a few lenses with what I consider a modern look: 50 Planar, 28/2.8 and 35/2 Biogons, Summarit 75mm. Of course they work well on the M10.

 

But I've also had some very good results I wasn't expecting as much with older lenses. One of my favourites is an M-Rokkor 40/2 from the CLE. It's a tiny lens, superbly put together, basically (so I've read) the Summicron-C design with better coatings. It's just fantastic on this body for people at around f/2.8 to f/4: sharp, smooth, natural-looking pictures with nice contrast and an appealing but not too in-your-face 3-D effect.

 

My biggest surprise has been a 135/4.5 Hektor. This lens gets a terrible rap on the internet. Mine at least has turned out to be a very usable portrait lens on the M10. It's sharp enough in the centre wide open, the overall scene contrast is relaxed, the low micro-contrast doesn't show every pore on the skin of people over 12 the way my 75 and 90mm lenses do, and the backgrounds are super smooth. And I'm much happier handholding it on the M10 at ISO 1600 than I ever was shooting film at 400.

 

As I said, a happy ending.

[paulsydaus]

I'm the OP. I always like to find out what happens in the end with these posts, so for those of you who are interested, this is it.

 

My dealer, good to his word, got me his next available M10 body after I returned the first one. This one is flawless in all respects and I've now used it for several weeks. It's a fantastic body and probably my favourite digital ever. I've shot a lot on Nikon dSLRs for many years (d200, d700, d800 --- all great cameras) and various compacts, plus a Sony a7, but the M10 seems to suit the way I photograph people best and the files are very robust, especially in the shadows. I like the overall look of the files better than the a7's shot with the same lenses, and I don't think it's just ray-angle issues; it's something about the colour and contrast that is beyond my technical competence to express.

 

I use full manual mode, pretty much exactly like an M6 or MP, but with the advantage of the very high ISOs of digital and the better M10 viewfinder. (I have had less success using aperture priority or auto ISO on the M10 than full manual --- unsurprisingly the centreweighted metering requires a lot more user interpretation than a Nikon matrix meter --- and I'm just used to full manual.) This works seamlessly in practice as I usually have one M film body with black and white (the last of my Neopan 400, alas), the M10 and two or sometimes three lenses in a small bag (I love the tiny size of the kit!). So I can swap between film and digital without any need to change my shooting workflow. Which was the whole point of getting the M digital body, ridiculously expensive as it is. Swapping cameras never quite worked for me with the film M / a7 pairing.

 

I've never much liked digital B and W before. The highlights usually don't look right to me, without enough shoulder, even when they don't actually clip. But looking at Sean Reid's work on his review site made me think I should be more open to it. I've liked the M10 Lightroom B and W conversions a lot. I don't know if they're intrinsically better than what you'd get out of another body but they do look good.

 

What I've liked the most about the camera and what has surprised me is how good lots of different glass looks on it. I've got a few lenses with what I consider a modern look: 50 Planar, 28/2.8 and 35/2 Biogons, Summarit 75mm. Of course they work well on the M10.

 

But I've also had some very good results I wasn't expecting as much with older lenses. One of my favourites is an M-Rokkor 40/2 from the CLE. It's a tiny lens, superbly put together, basically (so I've read) the Summicron-C design with better coatings. It's just fantastic on this body for people at around f/2.8 to f/4: sharp, smooth, natural-looking pictures with nice contrast and an appealing but not too in-your-face 3-D effect.

 

My biggest surprise has been a 135/4.5 Hektor. This lens gets a terrible rap on the internet. Mine at least has turned out to be a very usable portrait lens on the M10. It's sharp enough in the centre wide open, the overall scene contrast is relaxed, the low micro-contrast doesn't show every pore on the skin of people over 12 the way my 75 and 90mm lenses do, and the backgrounds are super smooth. And I'm much happier handholding it on the M10 at ISO 1600 than I ever was shooting film at 400.

 

As I said, a happy ending.

 

That's great!

Obviously if this problem appeared after some time of ownership the solution would probably have been sending the camera back to Germany for sensor remapping (removing dead pixels in firmware) or (if the number of dead pixels was too great) sensor replacement. Both would have been free but you would have been without the camera for a couple of months.

Given the problem occurred out of the box, you were right to receive a replacement.

Glad it all worked out.

Maybe I'll go test mine at ISO 2500 ;-)

 

 

 

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[sugar]

Hi to all, new to this forum.
I believe I have a similar problem.
I have my M10 for 4 months, few days back I was camping and for first time I took some photos with long exposure.

 

First photo was at ISO 6.400 no problem here, normal noise.
around 13 photos later I start realising the noise lines, at this moment I reduced to ISO 1.600, the problem was only getting worst until camera crashed at the 25ft photo and I had to removed the battery.
I believe is an overheating problem does anyone else have the same problem.

 

On the 3 attached photos I have overexposed by 2 stops just to make the issue more visible.

 

any thoughts are welcome!
cheers.

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[paulsydaus]

Hi to all, new to this forum.

I believe I have a similar problem.

I have my M10 for 4 months, few days back I was camping and for first time I took some photos with long exposure.

 

First photo was at ISO 6.400 no problem here, normal noise.

around 13 photos later I start realising the noise lines, at this moment I reduced to ISO 1.600, the problem was only getting worst until camera crashed at the 25ft photo and I had to removed the battery.

I believe is an overheating problem does anyone else have the same problem.

 

On the 3 attached photos I have overexposed by 2 stops just to make the issue more visible.

 

any thoughts are welcome!

cheers.

L1005201-4.jpg

L1005214-3.jpg

L1005221-5.jpg

What were the exposure times?

I don't think it looks right...

 

 

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[sugar]

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What were the exposure times?

I don't think it looks right...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

thank you for your reply,

my exposure time in the 1st photo is 8sec at 6.400 ISO, EV+0.3, f/1.8

2nd photo is 8sec at 6.400 ISO, EV+1, f/1.8

3rd photo is 29sec at 1.600 ISO, EV+0.6, f/1.8

[tobey bilek]

Check your pressure plate and felt lips on magazine for debris.

 

Oh and you just talked me out of a M10 saving me a bundle.  M8 & 9 will remain my cameras plus M6

 

Why can`t we trust these people .  I expect a top line $7000 camera to be flawless.  

 

I now have a very very low exposure count on the last M9P and see no corrosion so no preventative repair.  Then when it does happen,  the excuse will be no parts and you would have to pay for replacement anyway.  So they will offer a discount on new product with a different defect.

 

Guess that is what I get for taking super good care my M9P!!

Edited July 25, 2017 by tobey bilek

[sugar]

Check your pressure plate and felt lips on magazine for debris.

 

 

Very interesting approach!

 

You made me think, I have clean my sensor a month ago.

On this only attempt I used too much liquid (2 drops) and I had horizontal stains, then I tried again with one drop with no visible problem as a result.

 

Is my theory stands?

Worth to try clean it again, with vertical movement this time.

[paulsydaus]

thank you for your reply,

my exposure time in the 1st photo is 8sec at 6.400 ISO, EV+0.3, f/1.8

2nd photo is 8sec at 6.400 ISO, EV+1, f/1.8

3rd photo is 29sec at 1.600 ISO, EV+0.6, f/1.8

I would definitely approach Leica for a repair or exchange. That level of noise/banding at only ASA 6400 is definitely not right. I hope you get a speedy resolution. It won't cost you anything but you might be without your camera for a few weeks.

 

 

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[paulsydaus]

Very interesting approach!

 

You made me think, I have clean my sensor a month ago.

On this only attempt I used too much liquid (2 drops) and I had horizontal stains, then I tried again with one drop with no visible problem as a result.

 

Is my theory stands?

Worth to try clean it again, with vertical movement this time.

I would be surprised if cleaning marks are the cause for this and am also surprised you have needed to wet clean a relatively new sensor.

You can try it again but I doubt it will help. I suspect you need to send it in for service.

 

 

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Edited July 26, 2017 by paulsydaus

[jaapv]

Actually, any digital camera can be made to band like this, provided it is is underexposed enough regardless of ISO setting. The interesting question is: How much did you push the exposure in postprocessing?

To test properly take some photograps at the correct exposure.

Don't trust AE, it is often fooled by the highlights in circumstances like these.

Take a spot reading of one of the darker parts of the images.Check the histogram. it should not be bunched up all the way to the left.You are aiming to have the majority of the values in the middle or possibly to the right.

There is something wrong with the camera if it still bands at high ISO, but only then.

[sugar]

I would be surprised if cleaning marks are the cause for this and am also surprised you have needed to wet clean a relatively new sensor.

You can try it again but I doubt it will help. I suspect you need to send it in for service.

 

 

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I will be very surprised too, these lines are close to each other to be marks from the cleaning.

 

now about the reason I had to clean it with the liquid you'll see it in the attached photo, I tried first with a mild blower with no result.

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[sugar]

Actually, any digital camera can be made to band like this, provided it is is underexposed enough regardless of ISO setting. The interesting question is: How much did you push the exposure in postprocessing?

To test properly take some photograps at the correct exposure.

Don't trust AE, it is often fooled by the highlights in circumstances like these.

Take a spot reading of one of the darker parts of the images.Check the histogram. it should not be bunched up all the way to the left.You are aiming to have the majority of the values in the middle or possibly to the right.

There is something wrong with the camera if it still bands at high ISO, but only then.

 

well I have many cameras and I have never experience this kind of noice before (with lines), thats why I post it here and thats why I have sent same photos to my Leica dealer.

 

Here is the original photos, I just down convert them to jpg from DNG to upload them here, no other corrections applied.

 

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[jaapv]

Yes, but many cameras have quite aggresive noise reduction built in. Leica believes in minimal NR  for noise that can be addressed in postprocessing, leaving that aspect to the user.

But as I said, it is not impossible that the camera is at fault, it is just that these shots are inconclusive.

It is advisable, BTW, to communicate directly with Leica Wetzlar on matters like this.

[Surge]

There seems to be some confusion. @Tobey Bilek is talking about cleaning the magazine of a film camera, not a digital sensor! @Sugar seems to have interpreted Tobey's comments as a suggestion to clean the digital sensor. I don't think that was the intention!

 

Sugar, this seems like normal banding to me (but I'm not an expert). If you boost exposure too much, you will see banding at high ISO.

[jdlaing]

Wait. Who says, or where is it written, that $7,000.00 buys you a flawless camera?

[sugar]

There seems to be some confusion. @Tobey Bilek is talking about cleaning the magazine of a film camera, not a digital sensor! @Sugar seems to have interpreted Tobey's comments as a suggestion to clean the digital sensor. I don't think that was the intention!

 

Sugar, this seems like normal banding to me (but I'm not an expert). If you boost exposure too much, you will see banding at high ISO.

No confusion, I considered it as a joke the referral on the cleaning of an analog camera. But than I remembered that I had clean my sensor.

 

I don't believe that this noise is normal, specially when it's getting worst and worst take after take on the same conditions.

[sugar]

Yes, but many cameras have quite aggresive noise reduction built in. Leica believes in minimal NR for noise that can be addressed in postprocessing, leaving that aspect to the user.

But as I said, it is not impossible that the camera is at fault, it is just that these shots are inconclusive.

It is advisable, BTW, to communicate directly with Leica Wetzlar on matters like this.

Taking a photo at 30sec speed and then the camera takes another 30sec for noice reduction is the most aggressive way in my experience!

Anyways I'm still waiting news from Leica, let's see what they will say.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

That is a different type of noise reduction Black Frame NR cannot be duplicated digitally.