bancosydney Posted March 26, 2017 Share #1 Posted March 26, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well, as an experienced M film user, you can imagine my disappointment ... I picked up my M10 in Sydney today and took about 100 shots at a family gathering with two lenses, a ZM Biogon 35/2 and a Summarit 75/2.5, shooting with auto ISO. On (I think) all the ISO 2500 images, I got horizontal lines that run all the way across the image. The lines seem to be 1 pixel high: see the first and third images I've uploaded. The files I've uploaded are 100% crops from the DNGs processed in Lightroom 5.7.1 (clicking auto exposure to bring out the issue, but it's visible on the straight conversions too). The same problem is also visible, in the same places, on the camera JPGs. Unsurprisingly, it's easiest to detect in shadow areas, but none of these was massively over or underexposed. It happened with both lenses (the Biogon hand-coded as a Summicron 35 and the Summarit auto-coding). Weirdly, I cannot find these problem lines at any other ISO sensitivities, and auto ISO picked a large range, from about 400 up to 10,000. There just seems to be something wrong with 2500. The other problem is a number of what appear to be hot pixels, which are not confined to ISO 2500. I've attached a shot (the second one, with the bottom of the beer bottle) that was taken at ISO 3200 and shows them fairly clearly. The camera is running firmware 1.3.4.0. I should add that I'm not at all new to Lightroom or digital generally. I've shot Nikon digital for many years. But this is my first digital M. So: have I got a dud body, and should I just take it back for exchange for a new one? All the best, Richard (I should also add that I've read this forum for a long time, and found it very helpful and informative, but I've never felt I had anything to add or any query to raise. I've searched the forum but can't find posts dealing with similar problems to the one I'm experiencing. The closest was about an M10 with horizontal banding, but that post did not seem to be about lines only 1 pixel high.) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/270741-horizontal-lines-on-m10-at-iso-2500-plus-hot-pixels/?do=findComment&comment=3241898'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 26, 2017 Posted March 26, 2017 Hi bancosydney, Take a look here Horizontal lines on M10 at ISO 2500 plus hot pixels. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
bancosydney Posted March 26, 2017 Author Share #2 Posted March 26, 2017 Sadly, I was wrong about the lines happening only at ISO 2500. Here's one (or the hand) taken at ISO 5000. And here's another at ISO 2500 that shows the horizontal lines pretty clearly. Note also the hot pixels towards the bottom of the frame. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/270741-horizontal-lines-on-m10-at-iso-2500-plus-hot-pixels/?do=findComment&comment=3241903'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 26, 2017 Share #3 Posted March 26, 2017 The answer is simple: get the dealer to replace the body ASAP. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted March 26, 2017 Share #4 Posted March 26, 2017 Agreed. Looks like a dud. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bancosydney Posted March 26, 2017 Author Share #5 Posted March 26, 2017 Thanks --- that's what I thought, and what I'll do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 26, 2017 Share #6 Posted March 26, 2017 And when you have a new one, post some images in the Photoforums! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lm_user Posted March 26, 2017 Share #7 Posted March 26, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Why can't Leica have in camera pixel mapping like my Nikon J1. Seems like a no brainer to me Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 26, 2017 Share #8 Posted March 26, 2017 Why can't Leica have in camera pixel mapping like my Nikon J1. Seems like a no brainer to me Because a. The Leica sensors are full frame, not CX b. Mapping works by interpolating the pixel line, degrading image quality to a certain extent. Thus Leica has a tight tolerance limit for the number of pixels that may be remapped, making a sensor replacement necessary when that number is exceeded. A cheap camera will have a considerably wider tolerance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted March 26, 2017 Share #9 Posted March 26, 2017 I'm not so sure swapping cameras is the solution. There have been multiple reports of this issue now and I've actually seen this occur, although not on a regular basis. I suspect it's heat related and that a FW update may be needed to address this.If it were a defective camera, then far too many have slipped out. I would most defiantly report this to Leica...but you are not alone. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268864-m10-banding-in-high-contrast-setting/ http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/269258-m10-solid-green-line/ Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/270741-horizontal-lines-on-m10-at-iso-2500-plus-hot-pixels/?do=findComment&comment=3242051'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 26, 2017 Share #10 Posted March 26, 2017 They were probably fine out of the factory and go damaged in transport. Has there been low sunspot activity lately? http://news.spaceweather.com/cosmic-rays-are-intensifying/ http://news.spaceweather.com/neutrons-on-a-plane/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted March 26, 2017 Share #11 Posted March 26, 2017 They were probably fine out of the factory and go damaged in transport. Has there been sunspot activity lately? The image I posted above only occurred once...I haven't seen it happen again. Although I don't shoot a lot of high ISO. I'll do some more tests. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 26, 2017 Share #12 Posted March 26, 2017 Maybe Leica should take a leaf out of Sony's book and ship by sea. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted March 26, 2017 Share #13 Posted March 26, 2017 I went back and looked thru my recent images and don't see the line in anything shot from iso 1600-6400 (highest I've shot) in past month. The example I posted above happened a few months ago when the camera first arrived and I was shooting high ISO tests...so the problem is defiantly inconsistent for me. @bancosydney can you see if you can replicate the issue consistantly? or does it only occur occasionally? (which would support my heat theory) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 26, 2017 Share #14 Posted March 26, 2017 I'm not surprised. Sensor damage has been known to regenerate; there have been recommendations to put the camera in the freezer overnight for the purpose. Personally I think that is a myth Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevesurf Posted March 26, 2017 Share #15 Posted March 26, 2017 For those of you having "banding" issues with M10, and want to learn more about this, it may be good to see how may shots you've been taking in series at either high ISO and/or long exposure, then report this to Leica directly, along with the return of the camera. The following are posts of different CMOS sensor products exhibiting this and noting that the M10 is a non-AF camera, as there are other banding complaints from CMOS phase detection pixels not relevant here. CMOS Photography references - Canon and Sony: What you're seeing are artifacts from...when pixels are very close to being overexposed, possibly because they have a different clipping point. It's not uncommon to reveal banding in underexposed shadows when having to raise them. As was said a hot sensor can contribute to it (as happens with multiple long exposure sessions). Managing a longer exposure if possible would help (so the shadows don't have to be raised as much), but more so a more finessed developing of the lower tones can help. Some banding may be repaired by NR apps such as Nik's Dfine, though only so much can be done (have to watch for negative side effects which may result depending on the amt. of banding and the type of subject). CMOS Astrophotography reference: Read on, noting that most CMOS sensors used for astrophotography or low light applications have heat dissipation or advanced cooling techniques. Except that the visibility of the patterns and their obviousness varies with the subject... This is one reason why you will probably need to run so-called debanding routines Unfortunately, in my hands those debanding routines may not remove all traces of the "banding" and they also seem to have side effects and thus they sometimes leave artifacts that are difficult to remove or hide in the final image. I'd like to know whether anyone is seeing similar results with the ASI178 (color or monochrome, cooled or uncooled). It might be somewhat of a judgement call, since I'm sure if you look close enough you can probably see this kind of "noise" in just about any CMOS sensor. Note that you could reduce this pattern noise by collecting even more subs and by using dithering during the capture. It is my experience as a camera manufacturer that this is usually a result of not defect but poor sensor cooling design under "stressful" conditions. Until Leica either determines this as a sensor cooling design flaw or isolates it to a "first run" of sensors behaving badly and heating up too fast, you'll all be recommended, IMHO to just send the camera back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 26, 2017 Share #16 Posted March 26, 2017 Sensor and processor cooling appears to be the Achilles heel of all digital M models, and particularly difficult on the smaller M10. I doubt whether it is curable. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lm_user Posted March 26, 2017 Share #17 Posted March 26, 2017 Because a. The Leica sensors are full frame, not CX b. Mapping works by interpolating the pixel line, degrading image quality to a certain extent. Thus Leica has a tight tolerance limit for the number of pixels that may be remapped, making a sensor replacement necessary when that number is exceeded. A cheap camera will have a considerably wider tolerance. I think Leica customers candecide for themselves if the quality after remapping warrants a nrw sensor. Instead I send it to Leica and wait for 4 months and pay them $400 I don't need Leica to tell me when I can remap my camera and when I have to buy a new sensor If it makes you more comfortable- then so be it Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 26, 2017 Share #18 Posted March 26, 2017 Sorry, Leica sets their quality standards themselves. To Leica they are not debatable. Nor do they charge for things like this. Usual turnaround is a few weeks.it doesn't make me happy or sad for that matter. It is just the way the company operates. Take it or leave it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lm_user Posted March 26, 2017 Share #19 Posted March 26, 2017 Well I passed on M9 M240 fior many reasons- this being one of them. Cancelled my pre-order for M10 to see how the early adopters fair. I still have not decided on the M10. I waa very frustrated having this problem on my M8. I still enjoy the camera. I just figured Letca could figure thus out by now Maybe service in Europe is a couple of weeks. In the US it is far longer. Leica NJ is awful Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted March 26, 2017 Share #20 Posted March 26, 2017 So far I've only experienced the issue in a couple images out of thousands shot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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