almoore Posted July 16, 2017 Share #801 Posted July 16, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) "It feels like a film M" is of no interest when using a camera as a tool.Of course it is. The popularity of the film era M as a supplement to SLRs was largely due its refined and comfortable feel, along with its viewfinder and quiet shutter. I have no idea why you believe the 'feel' of a tool isn't important. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 16, 2017 Posted July 16, 2017 Hi almoore, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted July 16, 2017 Share #802 Posted July 16, 2017 Because it is emotional and subjective. It is important for an enthusiast. Ergonomics is the thing that counts for a tool. The ergonomics of the M240 are better for my hands than those of a film M. Too thin, it gives me finger cramp if I have to hold it for long with a heavy lens. But the feel may be nicer. Thicker bodies seem to work better for most, see the popularity of half cases with grips. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted July 16, 2017 Share #803 Posted July 16, 2017 Because it is emotional and subjective. It is important for an enthusiast. Ergonomics is the thing that counts for a tool...Thicker bodies seem to work better for most, see the popularity of half cases with grips. Emotional and subjective sums up pretty much every professional photographer I know. Different ergonomics work for different situations and different lenses. A Canon 5Div has wonderful ergonomics for its lens range, just as a Leica M does for its. As for cases, you'll struggle to find many professional photographers wrapping an M in one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted July 16, 2017 Share #804 Posted July 16, 2017 M11, M12, etc. not too difficult to understand the concept of upgrading is it? It's pointless buying an M240 now - spend £5K on a dead end? It is difficult to understand your assertion that the M240 is a dead-end but not the M10. If the M10 were modularly upgradable then it could be said not to be a dead end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 16, 2017 Share #805 Posted July 16, 2017 It is difficult to understand your assertion that the M240 is a dead-end but not the M10. If the M10 were modularly upgradable then it could be said not to be a dead end. Unless Leica decide to upgrade the M240 with newer sensors, USB3, better video, better shutter, better EVF etc then it's a dead end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted July 16, 2017 Share #806 Posted July 16, 2017 Emotional and subjective sums up pretty much every professional photographer I know. Different ergonomics work for different situations and different lenses. A Canon 5Div has wonderful ergonomics for its lens range, just as a Leica M does for its. As for cases, you'll struggle to find many professional photographers wrapping an M in one. I think a major division in whether people are happy with the capabilities of the M10 or think it is a step backward is in whether they want M cameras to be a jack of all trades camera or whether they are happy with the camera having more limitations. People like Jaap and Paul clearly want a camera with many capabilities and there is no question at the moment the M10 does not include some capabilities the M240 did. Video being the obvious one, but it also has reduced battery life, and it does not have a USB connection. Also, there is also no way to use the flash and the EVF at the same time. Now to some people this reduction in features is just fine. One group simply don't use these features when they shoot and for their types of photography the M10 is well suited. A second group already has multiple camera systems and they are fine with using a different camera for the things the M10 is not able to or doesn't do very well. For full disclosure I am in this camp. If I want to shoot video, then I will use my Sony A7s. If I want to shoot tethered, then I will use my Fuji GFX. If I want flash and an EVF the Fuji is a quite elegant solution. For both of these groups, however, having an M10 with the missing features would be pointless as they would never use, or in my case I would never use them unless they were much much better implemented than they were in the M240. Almost everyone in this group would have no problem if these features were present as long as they didn't come with any tradeoffs in size, cost, or functionality. Adding features without tradeoffs, however, seems a bit of a pipe dream. Yet, some of these features it is easy to imagine how there would be little or no costs--e.g., adding a grip to add a USB connection wouldn't add any cost or tradeoffs is you just don't buy the grip. Other features, however, seem more likely to add costs--e.g., video may add heat dissipation issues, may change the form factor of the camera, may drain significant resources to develop firmware, etc. Still, I don't think hardly anyone would be opposed to a version of the M10 (or perhaps a new version of a M240 size camera) that had video capabilities. For those who want these features seeing them missing in the M10 is clearly a big issue, as we have seen in the reaction by some on this thread. I don't want to discount that. It would suck not to be able to upgrade if you wanted to do so because the camera no longer had a feature you needed or wanted very much. Still I think this group has a lot of reason to hope. Leica has a long history of adding peripherals and models to their cameras to cater to even quite small segments of their quite small market share. Sure you pay a hefty premium for these options, but for a small company Leica has offered a huge array of peripherals and alternative models. I think there is good reason to hope that Leica will offer a grip with USB and an alternative model with video to name just two of the issues that have received the most attention. Even if they don't, however, then the route forward seems pretty clear. You will have to join the ranks of us with multiple camera systems as Jaap already has, or if you have multiple camera systems like Paul you will either need to add another camera yet or use the cameras you have in different ways, or switch systems. Any of these options is of course less than pleasant, but if it were me (and it is not so it is easy to say) if I were somebody who wanted the missing features I would simply sit pat until I knew more what the systems of peripherals and the variation in models of the M10 generation of camera develop. It does mean waiting a couple of years, but if I could wait, then I would wait. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted July 16, 2017 Share #807 Posted July 16, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) M10 is like a BLT..w/o the mayo..and 1/2 the bacon... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted July 16, 2017 Share #808 Posted July 16, 2017 I am coming late to this discussion. For me the M10 is the best digital Leica M so far and I have used them all, M8, M9 and M240. I have no interest in video, tethering, USB connections, GPS etc. If I want to do something that is outside of the 'reach' of a digital M or for which another camera or lens (eg zoom) is more suited then I use various Nikon, Fujifilm or Lumix cameras and lenses which I have. I have sold a lot of Nikon gear in recent years because of its size and also because I was largely not using it. Even though I have about 40 vintage Leicas and, perhaps, more Leica lenses, I do not regard myself a member of the Leica Fan Club; we are not talking about football clubs here. I buy and use modern Leica cameras because I like using them and they can perform certain photographic tasks. I buy vintage Leicas because I like them and I am interested in the history of Leica and its cameras etc. I also like using vintage Leicas. I have no interest in the SL, Q and TL2 cameras for various reasons. I would not feel obliged to buy them just because they are Leicas. If other makes of camera can perform the same tasks better for me I buy them. I don't feel 'ashamed' that I have not bought a Leica.This is just logical consumer behaviour. As for the M10. I like the smaller size and the button and menu layout. It is not a perfect camera (I have never used one that was) but it is definitely a big step forward handling-wise on the M240, which, to be truthful, I have never bonded with. Currently, I am using the M10 in an ERC designed for an M240 and it looks like a child in a Communion Suit that is a bit too big, but I intend to pick up a slimmer bodied one soon. I never use 'thumbs ups' or any of that sort of thing. I bought the Visoflex EVF with the camera, but I do not use it much. On a recent shoot with the WATE, I used the 'Frankenfinder' instead and I found it very good apart from the tedious task of changing focal length settings. The discussions here have made it clear that tastes and needs vary between different photographers. We are indeed lucky to have so many choices. The 'Swiss Army Knife' of cameras may or may not exist, but it is clear that the Leica M10 is not one, nor was it intended to be. I am very happy to use my M10 for what I need it. Indeed, since I acquired it about 7 weeks ago I have hardly used my other cameras at all. I find it that good. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted July 16, 2017 Share #809 Posted July 16, 2017 Can you pls summarise? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted July 16, 2017 Share #810 Posted July 16, 2017 M10 is like a BLT..w/o the mayo..and 1/2 the bacon... Based on the discussion, it seems others might characterize it as the M being the Mayo without the BLoaT. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted July 16, 2017 Share #811 Posted July 16, 2017 Unless Leica decide to upgrade the M240 with newer sensors, USB3, better video, better shutter, better EVF etc then it's a dead end. The M10 has no video and no USB. Most likely there will be better sensors and EVF's in the future, perhaps even a better shutter, none of which will be retrofittable to an M10. So I am still confused as to why you do not believe the M10 is just as much of a dead-end as an M240. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 16, 2017 Share #812 Posted July 16, 2017 The M10 has no video and no USB. Most likely there will be better sensors and EVF's in the future, perhaps even a better shutter, none of which will be retrofittable to an M10. So I am still confused as to why you do not believe the M10 is just as much of a dead-end as an M240. I never said anything about retrofitting. If you absolutely need USB in M camera then you are stuck with a 2012 M240 camera because the M10 doesn't have it. You are stuck in a dead end using an old camera unless Leica decide to introduce a new model M with USB. The M10, on the other hand will be replaced with the M11, M12 etc. If none of those have USB you are stuck in the dead end M240. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted July 16, 2017 Share #813 Posted July 16, 2017 The M10 is definitely dead as there will be better cameras in the future. Waiting is always good. Whoever buys now, buys a camera that will be outdated in no time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
microview Posted July 16, 2017 Share #814 Posted July 16, 2017 The M10 is definitely dead as there will be better cameras in the future. Waiting is always good. Whoever buys now, buys a camera that will be outdated in no time. …so everyone stop hanging on in those lengthy waiting lists Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted July 16, 2017 Share #815 Posted July 16, 2017 The M10 is definitely dead as there will be better cameras in the future. Waiting is always good. Whoever buys now, buys a camera that will be outdated in no time. I bought one and I love it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
schattenundlicht Posted July 16, 2017 Share #816 Posted July 16, 2017 It seems that the two main stances in this thread will be hard to reconcile, indeed. For some (I confess to belong in that camp) the M10 is the digital M that they have been waiting for all along. I am very happy that, owning a M9, I skipped the M 240. The M10 does all things that I request and expect from an M, and it doesn't do any things I don't want/need. I purchased it on instinct, mainly because of the form factor and tactile balance, because with closed eyes, it truly felt like my M7 (I did not read the marketing blather before coming to that conclusion, but I confess to occasional bouts of nostalgia). It simply is a camera that I like to shoot with very much. I enjoy the uncluttered menu and the reduction of buttons. Ah, by the way, image quality is excellent, too, but that is the case for the majority of digital cameras with a price tag of 1/10th of the M10. I do not miss video at all as I intend my M with its 'old-fashioned' rangefinder concept for still photography exclusively. By the way, I was definitely unimpressed by the implementation of video in the 240, which I used as a service replacement for a fortnight; imho Canon did better than that nearly a decade ago. I never used the USB connection on my M9. I don't miss it on my M10. For studio tethering, I can use my Nikon gear. On the other hand, in principle, I feel sympathetic with those who were disappointed by the loss of features that may have been dear to them. If they are happy with their 240 in good working condition, where is the problem? Even in this age of accelerated product cycles, you do not have to buy every new implementation of a gadget, and any digital camera is but a gadget. If video is a really important feature for them, the M platform might not be ideal anyway. On a different note, the rangefinder has been a dead end (aka contracting niche) for more than 50 years. Leica sold about a quarter of a million M3s alone in the 50ies and 60ies. In retrospect I have minor qualms about having bought another digital camera at all, because I dislike the built-in obsolescence and I mourn the fact that, in 10 years time, this beautiful machine will most propably be unserviceable due to a lack of spare parts (at least with regard to the main electronic components). I continue to marvel at the longevity of my screwmount and film Ms. I apologize for this rather redundant post, as propably everything on this topic has already been said, albeit not by everyone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted July 16, 2017 Share #817 Posted July 16, 2017 The M10 is definitely dead as there will be better cameras in the future. Waiting is always good. Whoever buys now, buys a camera that will be outdated in no time. That would be true at any point in time, therefore in perpetuity. I'm reminded of the poor chap whose wife was expecting their first baby and he publicly agonized over which camera to buy until his baby was five years old. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted July 16, 2017 Share #818 Posted July 16, 2017 That would be true at any point in time, therefore in perpetuity. I'm reminded of the poor chap whose wife was expecting their first baby and he publicly agonized over which camera to buy until his baby was five years old. And now baby can take selfie herself and won't need Dad's camera. Conclusion: the real problem is babies growing faster than camera evolution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 16, 2017 Share #819 Posted July 16, 2017 Perhaps, but looking at it from another perspective... Leica released this camera to specifically appeal to photography purists. A few people are complaining that it doesn't include video, even though Leica offers multiple other cameras that do include video, and undoubtedly will offer upgrades to those in the future. The photography purists are looking at this and thinking "what's wrong with us getting the camera we want? You already have the camera you want. Let us have our camera, too." Excuse me? Which other Leica camera do I want? I cannot think of one - and I have been shooting just about every M and R camera ever built. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted July 16, 2017 Share #820 Posted July 16, 2017 On a different note, the rangefinder has been a dead end (aka contracting niche) for more than 50 years. Leica sold about a quarter of a million M3s alone in the 50ies and 60ies. I said that the best digital M to date was the M10. The best M camera ever for me was the M3 (largely because of the unique rangefinder) and they have not made any of them for nearly 50 years. Some digital Ms may eventually become collector's items, but maintaining them in service may become more difficult as time goes on. M3s should, however, remain usable so long as 35mm film is available. As for the M11 etc, I can always buy one of those when it comes out. I cannot buy a new M3 unless someone starts making copies. I have no immediate concerns about 'dead ends, for Leica rangefinders, though. I expect them to be available for a long time both as new over the counter models and as vintage collector's and user's models. The absence of a plug or a lead or a button is neither here nor there in the long run, particularly if we recall the famous dictum of J. M. Keynes. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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