pop Posted July 11, 2017 Share #641 Posted July 11, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) ..."Niche" just means a smaller than usual segment. ... Isn't this just another way of saying that most people like other things than those in a particular "niche"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 Hi pop, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Peter H Posted July 11, 2017 Share #642 Posted July 11, 2017 Not sure that is a fact Peter. Certainly some don't like it that way. I think the reason Leica M's are a niche market has little to do with whatever those things are it doesn't have, except of course the M 'likers' don't want/need those things. All those electronic gizmo connections offer me nothing, so I guess that makes me a niche marketee, maybe. Happy in such a space. Just a simple soul. It wasn't a very serious point If lots more people liked it, it wouldn't be such a niche product. But the combination of features ( including price) restrict it to a tiny proportion of the camera market. So most people don't like it this way. That's a simple fact I think, and not very helpful. Largely, those few (like me) who buy it, do like it, or we wouldn't buy it. Maybe we should just say, enough people like it this way that we don't need to worry about the others. Leica can think about that if they want to, but we few who like it don't need to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhicks Posted July 11, 2017 Share #643 Posted July 11, 2017 Certainly, but it doesn't mean a company shouldn't develop products for whatever segment is being targeted. Again, the implication here is either being used in a negative way or it's pointing out something even more fundamental: that there exists another segment of the camera buying population that wants an M to include these other things as well. Will that widen their marketability or shrink it? I have no idea but Leica likely did market research to develop their segmentation plan. If they're wrong the market will force them to adjust. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp995 Posted July 11, 2017 Share #644 Posted July 11, 2017 ... "Niche" just means a smaller than usual segment... Correct, that's what I ment! The digital RF market ist a small, but very successfull niche. And Leica made a clear statemant how they position the M with "Das Wesentliche" During the 80s Leica M survived; Leica R was dead. I think Leica M will also survive the SL some time ... Continuity is the way to go and what a small niche product makes successfull - Not "me too" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 11, 2017 Share #645 Posted July 11, 2017 Leica R dead in 1980? Leica designed and produced the most impressive R camera ever after that period (1990, market introduction 1996): the R8; not to mention the R5 and R7 in the old style in 1983 and 1986. The R camera system died in the 21st century. Mind you, the development costs brought the company to the brink of financial ruin... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp995 Posted July 11, 2017 Share #646 Posted July 11, 2017 Leica R dead in 1980? Leica designed and produced the most impressive R camera ever after that period (1990, market introduction 1996): the R8; not to mention the R5 and R7 in the old style in 1983 and 1986. The R camera system died in the 21st century. Mind you, the development costs brought the company to the brink of financial ruin... O.k., maybe later than i thought. But it doesn't matter, the M survived at the end. Why? The R-System was a DSLR with a lot of competition. You're right, the change to AF in this market would have required enormous R&D budgets for Bodies, Lenses etc. That's why I think that Leica didi it right to stay in their niche with the M and not rying to compete with "me too" products and features. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 11, 2017 Share #647 Posted July 11, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I loved the Leica R SLR's.........Still have a R9 that's working nicely. I always thought that camera had the best SLR viewfinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 11, 2017 Share #648 Posted July 11, 2017 O.k., maybe later than i thought. But it doesn't matter, the M survived at the end. Why? The R-System was a DSLR with a lot of competition. You're right, the change to AF in this market would have required enormous R&D budgets for Bodies, Lenses etc. That's why I think that Leica didi it right to stay in their niche with the M and not rying to compete with "me too" products and features. Actually they turned the niche into model differentiation; The S system was an upgraded R system, the SL a present-day R, the TL a vaguely CL segment camera, and the Q their high-end point-and shoot. Under that the X-series and the Panaleicas. One can hardly call them a niche manufacturer any more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp995 Posted July 11, 2017 Share #649 Posted July 11, 2017 Actually they turned the niche into model differentiation; The S system was an upgraded R system, the SL a present-day R, the TL a vaguely CL segment camera, and the Q their high-end point-and shoot. Under that the X-series and the Panaleicas. One can hardly call them a niche manufacturer any more. You didn't really read my post! I said the M is a "niche product" but I did not say that Leica is a "niche manufacturer" I wanted to say, that all the other products from Leica are under hard competition and will be discontinued if the numbers are getting worse. No problem for Leica ... But I think, and the history is my friend, that the M will finally survive - but only if it stays what it is since >50y "Never change a winning team" is great marketing too ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhicks Posted July 11, 2017 Share #650 Posted July 11, 2017 "Never change a winning team" is great marketing too ... Today's guru is tomorrow's village idiot so nothing is guaranteed. There are no perfect analogues to future buying behavior. I will admit that I am a late comer and did not read all 32 pages prior to this one. I did get a peak at a few and it seemed, if I summarize, that the issue is that there are more than a few who are disappointed in the total available features offered in the M10. Whatever the features are, let's just call them features. I believe I also read a counter point made by a forum administrator early on that one of the desired features - video - was considered but later discarded due to a trade off in product thickness. Whether we agree or not - I've read here that some believe it's a mere firmware update while others believe it should have been accomplished regardless - we have as evidence a person who claims to know that an actual tradeoff decision was made. Read: with current technology available, you can have one or the other, not both. That one decision is not a technology decision. Rather, it's a strategic decision that is made for many reasons: product differentiation, appealing to a core value, etc. Reasons that are not always too clear to outsiders. Segmentation is a science, yes, but there's also an art in the decision that's made. The decision is not always made to satisfy Homo Economicus's desire to maximize profit for the thing being considered. It may be that the decision was considered along with a myriad others to maximize profit for the company as a whole, not just the M system. Time will tell. If the future M11 has the very features you're longing for, then it may be due to advances in technology or, more likely, a correction along the way in their product development plan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp995 Posted July 11, 2017 Share #651 Posted July 11, 2017 Today's guru is tomorrow's village idiot so nothing is guaranteed. There are no perfect analogues to future buying behavior. Yes, but 50 years of success for me is a guaranty that the M will stay as it is several further years. Actual Leica Manager and Leica M customers are no "village idiots" - for sure ... We will see it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 11, 2017 Share #652 Posted July 11, 2017 You didn't really read my post! I said the M is a "niche product" but I did not say that Leica is a "niche manufacturer" I wanted to say, that all the other products from Leica are under hard competition and will be discontinued if the numbers are getting worse. No problem for Leica ... But I think, and the history is my friend, that the M will finally survive - but only if it stays what it is since >50y "Never change a winning team" is great marketing too ... My main objection to the M10 is that Leica narrowed the niche, instead of continuing the trend that was set by the M240 of expanding the versatility of the M camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted July 11, 2017 Share #653 Posted July 11, 2017 My main objection to the M10 is that Leica narrowed the niche, instead of continuing the trend that was set by the M240 of expanding the versatility of the M camera. +1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted July 11, 2017 Share #654 Posted July 11, 2017 I thought that Leica might establish two M lines, one more niche and one more versatile. But it seems that the SL is for the latter. That said, the M10 is fantastic for my preferred RF M shooting. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted July 11, 2017 Share #655 Posted July 11, 2017 The M10 appears to be a success at the moment..but that's not a guarantee into the future because the buyer dynamic does not stay the same year to year..or decade to decade..what people want today..they suddenly ..have no interest in..tomorrow... Remember beanie babies... I knew someone who made hundreds of thousands of $$..selling those things back in the day..and then suddenly..it was all over..you couldn't give the things away.. As much as I like my M's..film not digital..the M10 is pretty much.. just a very expensive snapshot camera..for people with a lot of dollares to spend... Leica has tapped into this niche market ..for the time being.. But after everyone who is going to jump..has their M10..what happens then.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhicks Posted July 11, 2017 Share #656 Posted July 11, 2017 But after everyone who is going to jump..has their M10..what happens then.. Adaptation. They are playing the same technology game as all the rest, only at a slightly different angle with the M. Technology and global availability has changed the way that the average citizen spends their discretionary dollars. People update their cars before they need to. Their mobile devices. Their computers. Their televisions. And yes, their cameras. It is THAT bubble of money that Leica is tapping into, 'expensive snapshot camera' or not. When the M11 comes out, it will likely be hailed as next great thing. People will buy it and be very satisfied. Until the M12 comes out. I keep using the word 'segment' in my posts. There truly is a segment of the population that has an enormous amount of discretionary money to spend. Digital products are developed primarily for this segment of people. How to woo them is the art. The science is in differentiating your product line enough so that the wooing that's done turns a profit for the company. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 11, 2017 Share #657 Posted July 11, 2017 But after everyone who is going to jump..has their M10..what happens then.. There'll be an M11... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bozu_shutterbugger Posted July 11, 2017 Share #658 Posted July 11, 2017 I agree with the notion that the M10 is not missing features. The M line is a niche product to a very specific type of customer. For many it's not even the only camera they have, so the lack of video or any other 'modern' feature is really not an issue nor a wish for this type of customer. In my opinion, the type of customer that likes the M line is not only from a medium to high purchasing power but also usually of a certain age up, many times because their references are in the film M cameras and that's the experience they want, converted to the best possible image quality that a digital sensor can give us today. The modern full frame camera that Leica has to compete with the Sonys, Fujis, Olympus and the likes is the SL, and that's the camera that should get all the bells and whistles of modern technology, including video. And then you have the Q, for those who want a cheaper 1 lens alternative. It seems to me this is what they are trying to achieve and in my humble opinion, it makes a lot of sense. Personally, I love the M line and I hope it can continue to get developed in the same direction as the M10 has gone. I am unsure if you meant to say people buying leica are OLD or experienced. I don't mean to put words in your mouth but Leica has a league of its own. I come from the DSLR, Sony, Olympus & Fuji (I have serious gas). When I came to Leica, I felt i reached my destination. Leica realized that not many care about the video function on the M240 and so will be the fate with the Wifi on M10. Hence they removed it. Add a Sony 6000 or RX1 for 500 bucks you have a blogging camera for Cheap. I say yes, SL has to compete with Sony A series cameras. Again, what are we competing? its very subjective. Price? Frame Rate? IQ? Lenses? Size? @Olsen - Are you saying battery life is pathetic on M10 or M240? Who is the competition here? None really. Fuji X's are not really true range finders. They are gimmick. Plus the battery on those is skinny. Sony's suck battery like a V10 burns gas. So the only ones remaining are DSLR's & Go Pros? M10 Vs M240 - Yes, the battery life is slightly less. Carry a spare one may be? When i used sony i had to carry 5 extra ones just to get through the day. in my opinion that the competition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted July 11, 2017 Share #659 Posted July 11, 2017 ...Leica has tapped into this niche market ..for the time being.. But after everyone who is going to jump..has their M10..what happens then.. There'll be an M11... Or M10 Monochrom that I hope for... Or M10 M-D just months before M10 M-D Monochrom or what else that some people (niche in niche ?) are waiting for. May I suggest that Leica Marketing people is working hard now for that new M . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bozu_shutterbugger Posted July 11, 2017 Share #660 Posted July 11, 2017 Yes, but 50 years of success for me is a guaranty that the M will stay as it is several further years. Actual Leica Manager and Leica M customers are no "village idiots" - for sure ... We will see it... Agree w CP995. But can't take success for guarantee is the point. Look what happened to Blackberry, Nokia or even Nikon for example. Leica on the other hand is a different ball game because at least I tread my lenses like investments or less depreciating assets. I have invested heavy in this label and so have many. Quality has remained consistent or better so I don't see this going away. iPhone has what 15 mp camera, does that mean people like us won't buy the M9 Monochrom ? Average person would say NO. But there will always be US Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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