M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.

[roma]

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Hi a.,

I'm one of those people who likes to have some depth of field in my images and would love to shoot in dark places or street at night at, say, f4.0 at 1/125 or 1/250 second with a 35mm or 50mm lens. So, it's not a specific requirement for me, but just a wish for improvement for color to stay in tact even above ISO 6400. It's going in that direction with all camera manufacturers, but I would love for Leica to focus on that rather than on higher pixel count, for example.

As far a battery life goes, it's just one more distraction when you're totally focused on taking photos. 

[GT2RS]

Hi all,

I'm wondering if M11 would be out this year. The only reason I didn't buy M10-P is because it's 24MP. Not that it's low or anything, but it would struggle if I'm doing large prints. 36MP would be perfect IMO. 

Any info appreciated. Cheers.

[Paulus]

I'm waiting for 4 months on my M10 chrome order. Still not arrived. Maybe it's because Leica is using its capacity to build the M10 safari. There is no clue, that the M 11 will arrive this year, but I'm not really convinced anymore.  

[jaapv]

The M10 arrived five years after the M240, but it was delayed.  I would bet on 2021 However, in Dutch we call this “watching coffee dregs” I.e. using a crysta ball. 

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

The M10 arrived five years after the M240, but it was delayed.  I would bet on 2021 However, in Dutch we call this “watching coffee dregs” I.e. using a crysta ball. 

No, the M240 was announced in Sept, 2012, but didn’t arrive until late April 2013. The M10 release date was Jan 19, 2017.  But early 2021 is probably right.

Leica has been pretty much on a 4 year cycle for M, S and probably the next SL.

Jeff

Edited March 19, 2019 by Jeff S

[wlaidlaw]

I would really consider the M10 to be a variant/development of the M240, hence I would expect an update sooner than 2021. Late 2019 to mid-2020 would be my guess. I suspect it will depend on whether Leica judge the M11 or SL2 as the bigger profit generator. I would doubt that they have the R&D capacity to do both simultaneously. If the M11 were just to be a sensor, processor, image driver with LCD & EVF update, with no mechanical changes, that is not a huge job.

Wilson

[MisterMagoo]

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M10 is pretty much the perfect M design/feature wise, except its sensor feels a bit dated. I'd like to see DR close to latest gen Sony & Nikons and/or a significant MP boost.

Oddly enough, Q2 now has by far the best Leica full-frame sensor. Most likely identical to Panasonics upcoming 47MP flagship S1R.

I guess we can conclude by that that TowerJazz will now be their new sensor partner from within the alliance.

Hopefully that means a faster M11 progress.. as I will be patiently holding out for that one (and probably buy a Q2 in the meantime).

[dkmoore]

2 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

I would really consider the M10 to be a variant/development of the M240, hence I would expect an update sooner than 2021. Late 2019 to mid-2020 would be my guess. I suspect it will depend on whether Leica judge the M11 or SL2 as the bigger profit generator. I would doubt that they have the R&D capacity to do both simultaneously. If the M11 were just to be a sensor, processor, image driver with LCD & EVF update, with no mechanical changes, that is not a huge job.

Wilson

I'm stating the obvious here but they (Leica) develop multiple cameras at the same time but with staggered start and stop schedules. The SL2 is expected sometime Q2-Q3 2019, they just released the Q2, The S3 is about to be released, and they released the 75 Noctilux. This proves out that Leica is more than capable of producing multiple products at once and conducting R&D across their multiple lines of cameras. This has been the case for the last 5 years or so at least.

The M11 is 100% already under R&D. You are probably better (serious statement) informed then me but I think Christmas time 2020 would be the earliest we will start hearing accurate rumors about the M11. But, who knows. I certainly don't.

 

[Jeff S]

9 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

I would really consider the M10 to be a variant/development of the M240, 

That might have been an argument for a shorter cycle to bring forth the M10 after the M240, but it still took 4 years.  So even if the M11 is a “variant/development” of the M10, why would you think less than 4 years?

Of course none of us have a clue. To your point, though, Stephan Schulz did say with regard to the SL2 (in an interview with the Three Blind Men guy) that timing depends on “how ambitious” they are.

Jeff

[low325]

What about a possibility of another M type (2xx)?   Maybe we will see something in between the standard numerical monikers again just like the M240?

Perhaps a short re-issue CCD M? Or a Type 240 Mk II so when the M11 comes out, it retains the same MP count as it’s predecessor.  Just how the current m10 sensor was an evolution of the same MP count?

I can see this strategy making sense as the M Type XXX are the M’s that catch the latest digital craze, whether it be MP count, 4K movie (again?!), dynamic range.  Then the standard monikers are the more refined M’s...just like how the M10 kept the same MP, but a product of more refinement than a ‘keeping up with the jones’ product.

Edited March 20, 2019 by low325

[MisterMagoo]

Pretty sure I read in an interview Leica were done with Type XXX and were only going for double-digit M's with MxP/MxM/MxD variants only.

[Jeff S]

No more 3 digit “Typ”, but in theory this could still allow for a M10.2... although I doubt it.  The P versions seem to cover the interim models besides Monochroms or screenless variants.  But if we ever see an EVF based or hybrid VF version, or maybe variants based on MP count, who knows how Leica would label them.  Many companies, including Leica, haven’t been consistent or logical in the name game. 

Jeff

[jaapv]

On 3/19/2019 at 3:39 PM, MisterMagoo said:

M10 is pretty much the perfect M design/feature wise, except its sensor feels a bit dated. I'd like to see DR close to latest gen Sony & Nikons and/or a significant MP boost.

Oddly enough, Q2 now has by far the best Leica full-frame sensor. Most likely identical to Panasonics upcoming 47MP flagship S1R.

I guess we can conclude by that that TowerJazz will now be their new sensor partner from within the alliance.

Hopefully that means a faster M11 progress.. as I will be patiently holding out for that one (and probably buy a Q2 in the meantime).

It is certainly the highest resolving FF sensor with Leica. I yet have to see evidence that it is the "best"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[IkarusJohn]

2 minutes ago, jaapv said:

It is certainly the highest resolving FF sensor with Leica. I yet have to see evidence that it is the "best"

According to the tests posted on Leica Rumours, the Q2 has less dynamic range and more noise at all ISOs than the sensor in the M10 or the SL ...

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

According to the tests posted on Leica Rumours, the Q2 has less dynamic range and more noise at all ISOs than the sensor in the M10 or the SL ...

This article seemed more specific to exposure latitude than dynamic range...

https://leicarumors.com/2019/03/12/check-out-the-leica-q2-dynamic-range.aspx/

Jeff

Edited March 22, 2019 by Jeff S

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

According to the tests posted on Leica Rumours, the Q2 has less dynamic range and more noise at all ISOs than the sensor in the M10 or the SL ...

That would not surprise me, given the smaller pixel size.

[andrea-i]

18 minutes ago, jaapv said:

That would not surprise me, given the smaller pixel size.

Isn't smaller pixel size meant to produce less noise?
I was just reading a tech article on this the other day as I was also unaware.

[jaapv]

It is a rather complicated subject with moving goal posts. Advancing technology has made comparing harder, with sensor size having a more significant impact than sensor resolution. However, in the matter of image noise, we are more interested in dynamic range than in absolute noise per pixel (the larger pixel will indeed generate more noise in an absolute sense due to its size, but we must consider the whole sensor, and there will be fewer pixels that generate noise). There the larger pixel holds the advantage, given similar sensor design.

https://www.pco.de/fileadmin/user_upload/knowledge_base/kb_pixel_size_sensitivity_105.pdf

[Chaemono]

Backside illuminated high pixel count FF sensors have very little noise at high ISO. Panasonic and Leica forwent the BSI technology and chose instead a “waveguide” whatver approach for their 47 MPx sensor. They must have done so for a good reason. So, I will reserve judgement on which sensor has the best DR before I see for myself how the M10, the SL, the SR1, the α7R III, and the Z7 perform with the same lens at different ISOs in scenes with dark Shadows and extreme Highlights. I’m sure the non-BSI S1R/Q2/SL2 sensor will show more noise than Sony’s or Nikon’s at high ISO. The S1 would then be a better choice (and it doesn’t have an AA/OLP-Filter 😀). But the new Leica/Panasonic 47 MPx sensor could possibly handle high contrast scenes better at lower ISOs because it supposedly uses aspherical lenses to direct light into the pixel and deep photodiodes. I’m not sure how effective this is, but I’m really intrigued now to see for myself. I don’t care what the charts show. The M10 sensor gets a DxOMark score of only 85 but the M10 performance at ISO 200-640 in high contrast scenes beats the α7R III and the the Z7 by a mile. I’m not sure where I’ll post the pictures but definetly on my SmugMug page. 😁

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[Paulus]

Am 19.3.2019 um 07:36 schrieb Paulus:

I'm waiting for 4 months on my M10 chrome order. Still not arrived. Maybe it's because Leica is using its capacity to build the M10 safari. There is no clue, that the M 11 will arrive this year, but I'm not really convinced anymore.  

it just arrived...