pnoble Posted April 26, 2017 Share #81 Posted April 26, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Actually - though I think most of us find ourselves nodding our head at your car analogy - the possible variance in the SD-spec is vastly larger than that of gasoline. At a physical level, the family of SD cards seem like simple devices... form factor, pin assignment, and high-level data transfer protocols are straightforward. Those parts of the SD spec are stable. Alas, it quickly starts to go wonky from there. The SD card specification originated out of a consortium of Matsushita, Toshiba, and SanDisk. It derived from the earlier MultiMediaCard. Later, the spec became "owned" by the Secure Digital Association, a much larger consortium of over a thousand companies. The obvious desire of any device manufacturer (like Leica) is to achieve error-free operation across as many SD card products as possible. The challenge is the enormous variability in that multitude. The first problem is how strict, or loose, any given card manufacturer chooses to interpret the spec. And even if, by their lights, they are interpreting the spec strictly, there are many differences and options open to them. Just a few... Capacity differences Transfer speed variations Multiple clock speeds and varying size data buses in the same card Different electrical interfaces (some 3.3v; some 1.8v) FAT12, FAT16, FAT32, and exFAT filesystems Some cards implement wear-leveling; some don't Power consumption varies significantly between card types and manufacturer Although the SD spec itself is proprietary (and can be licensed by card manufacturers), parts of it have been reverse-engineered and some of that rogue code is in the wild Cards implement multiple state conditions; and varying conditions in which state can change Most cards implement multiple read/write modes Complex and different bus topologies SD cards all have inherent defects (probably the dirty little secret of microprocessor fabrication). Different manufacturers implement different defect management systems. That's just the tip of the iceberg. The bottom line is that camera and other device manufacturers must navigate a daunting and complex SD card landscape. The technology is not nearly so simple as might first appear. And we've seen plenty of empirical evidence over more than a decade now that Leica's software effort(s) are probably their greatest weakness. It wouldn't surprise me if they only have a couple people working on it across all their product lines. What has worked for me has been to choose a very conservatively spec'd card (both capacity and speed), always use a given card in a given camera (no sharing), always format in-camera, and never delete images in-camera. Thank you for your extremely knowledgeable and insightful post which I belatedly read, Jager! Including your observation that Leica's software/firmware is its greatest weakness with maybe only a couple of firmware programmers. I have found this to be so true in my professional world, buying specialty graphics cards from small scale manufacturers. They almost always get the physical board manufacture, which is anyhow typically subcontracted, right from day one, but struggle and struggle with the firmware with painful consequences to their customers. Is firmware inherently more difficult or is it more a matter of greater institutional hardware expertise and experience? Certainly the case with Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 26, 2017 Posted April 26, 2017 Hi pnoble, Take a look here SD Card compatibility issue?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
6bit Posted April 27, 2017 Share #82 Posted April 27, 2017 Reading through this thread, I am curious why Sony, Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, and others don't seem to have multipage threads talking about SD card compatibility issues. Any reason why Leica seems to be struggling with this on the M10? Follow up to this, how long will Leica realistically provide FW updates and improvements to the M10? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnoble Posted April 27, 2017 Share #83 Posted April 27, 2017 Maybe Leica customers are more passionate or have more time on their hands! But seriously, I think Jager makes a good point re the complexity of the issue and Leica's relatively small size as it relates to firmware development. Re firmware upgrades, the M9 was announced in September 2009 and began to ship in early 2010, I think. The last firmware update was last October 19, 2016, so around 7 years after initial introduction, so far. The previous update was on November 11, 2014. The M8 was announced in September 2006 and the last firmware update was also on November 11, 2014, around eight years after introduction. So maybe eight years from now would be a good empirical guess. 2025. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted April 28, 2017 Share #84 Posted April 28, 2017 I have found this to be so true in my professional world, buying specialty graphics cards from small scale manufacturers. They almost always get the physical board manufacture, which is anyhow typically subcontracted, right from day one, but struggle and struggle with the firmware with painful consequences to their customers. Is firmware inherently more difficult or is it more a matter of greater institutional hardware expertise and experience? Certainly the case with Leica. I think it's because hardware design, although it can be quite complex, is far more determinative. Whether you're building an analog-to-digital converter, implementing a GPS chipset, or engineering the finals on an amateur radio... your design path is fairly straightforward. Errors tend to be much more in-your-face. And once you've got your hardware design modeled, it's just (!) a matter of achieving adequate yields in fabrication. Software, on the other hand, beyond a certain scale/complexity, begins to approach infinity in terms of its possible variation. It's like walking into a forest where every tree has the capacity to affect every other tree. Years ago I ran the software development operation in AT&T Bell Labs' largest market. Millions of dollars hinged on what we did or didn't do. One fine, spring morning we had a meeting to discuss the latest schedule slip. An external manager looked at me and asked "how is it you can't pin the dates down better?" I looked at him, suddenly understanding something I hadn't before. Shaking my head with a small smile, I said "you think writing this code is akin to following a recipe in the kitchen. It's not. It's more akin to writing a novel. It's as much a creative endeavor as it is a defined one. Some of it, yes, is simply walking along the path laid in front of you. But part of it isn't. Part of it requires intuition, flashes of insight, and other elusive mental gymnastics." "It's not, alas, like making biscuits." Software pervades everything in our modern world, of course. And countless tomes have been written that speak to its difficulty and its complexity. Alas, it's just a hard thing. There are no magic bullets. It doesn't surprise me that a small company like Leica, a company whose expertise has always been in hardware and glass, has a tough time getting their arms around it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 29, 2017 Share #85 Posted April 29, 2017 It doesn't surprise me that a small company like Leica, a company whose expertise has always been in hardware and glass, has a tough time getting their arms around it. I doubt whether this fits the facts. Not only were they the first optical company to develop a CAD system called COMO in the 1970-ies, and kept developing it, nowadays they always use expert outside input for their firmware, at first it was written by Jenoptik and presently, although more development is done in-house, they have access to Panasonic's resources, which are considerable. In fact, it would not surprise me if individual sections of the firmware came straight from Japan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted April 29, 2017 Share #86 Posted April 29, 2017 I doubt whether this fits the facts. Not only were they the first optical company to develop a CAD system called COMO in the 1970-ies, and kept developing it, nowadays they always use expert outside input for their firmware, at first it was written by Jenoptik and presently, although more development is done in-house, they have access to Panasonic's resources, which are considerable. In fact, it would not surprise me if individual sections of the firmware came straight from Japan. I'm basing my supposition purely on Leica's firmware releases, which frequently have been buggy and with very long intervals between releases. If Leica has access to Panasonic's vaunted software expertise (or, conversely, significant in-house competencies), it's not apparent. I love Leica's design ethos and believe they bring the purest expression of utility in today's photographic world. But I've seen very little evidence that software is their strength. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neko Posted April 29, 2017 Share #87 Posted April 29, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I love Leica's design ethos and believe they bring the purest expression of utility in today's photographic world. But I've seen very little evidence that software is their strength. +1 Could not put into words in a better way my opinion on the subject. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Posted April 29, 2017 Share #88 Posted April 29, 2017 Maybe we should be thankful, that Leica didn't hook up with Microsoft...otherwise we would have 100+ updates every month :-) BTT...after owning and using the M10 for 5 weeks now and having made around 800 photos, transferred them, deleted single/all, burst shot etc etc, I have absolutely no issues with the Lexar Professional 2000x 64GB SDXC UHS-II/U3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 29, 2017 Share #89 Posted April 29, 2017 I'm basing my supposition purely on Leica's firmware releases, which frequently have been buggy and with very long intervals between releases. If Leica has access to Panasonic's vaunted software expertise (or, conversely, significant in-house competencies), it's not apparent. I love Leica's design ethos and believe they bring the purest expression of utility in today's photographic world. But I've seen very little evidence that software is their strength. As a Panasonic user, I cannot attest that their software is bug-free Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neko Posted April 29, 2017 Share #90 Posted April 29, 2017 But I've seen very little evidence that software is their strength. That is quite an euphemism! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruby Posted April 30, 2017 Share #91 Posted April 30, 2017 Problems with Lexar Professional 633x 64 GB and Sandisc Ultra 64 GB. Both cards are SDXC-Cards. Formerly SDHC-Cards 16 GB work well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_OOF Posted May 4, 2017 Share #92 Posted May 4, 2017 Looking for a new card for my M10 I tried: - SanDisk Extreme SDHC, 90 Mb/s, 32 Gb - many problems... Changed with - SanDisk Ultra SDHC, 80 Gb/s, 32Gb - no problems - Lexar Professional SDHC, 1000x, 150 Mb/s, 32 Gb - no problems Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted May 4, 2017 Share #93 Posted May 4, 2017 Problems with SandDisk Extreme Pro (SDHC) 32GB 95 mb/s. Crashes, slow reading, no image in LCD. Last FW update. No problems with: - Lexar 16GB 95 mb/s -SandDisk ultra 16 GB 80 mb/s No problems with exactly that Sandisk card Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neko Posted May 4, 2017 Share #94 Posted May 4, 2017 No problems with exactly that Sandisk card First two weeks with these cards (two of them) no problems. Then crashes, slow reading, no image in LCD screen.....Is not just me. Other users reported same problems with this card. We need patience with Leica electronics...Tons of it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnoble Posted May 5, 2017 Share #95 Posted May 5, 2017 Kind of humorous really. Guys (mostly) paying $15,000 for a camera body and lens (M10 and APO 50mm in my case) and struggling to find an SD card that works. Wouldn't happen with a $300 Canon, Sony, Nikon, Fuji, Panasonic, Samsung..... Frankly leaves me thinking of Hilaire Belloc's The Garden Party. And I'm included. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soden Posted May 5, 2017 Share #96 Posted May 5, 2017 I don't get what all this angst is about. Every digital M has had SD card issues at the first release. Sometimes it's corrected in firmware and sometimes it's corrected by what cards we choose and sometimes it's not corrected at all. Leica M is a unique animal, it's flaws included. Better to share what cards that work (or don't work) than whine about something you can't change. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted May 5, 2017 Share #97 Posted May 5, 2017 First two weeks with these cards (two of them) no problems. Then crashes, slow reading, no image in LCD screen.....Is not just me. Other users reported same problems with this card. We need patience with Leica electronics...Tons of it! I'm using it for 3,5 month now including a big trip to Asia Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_OOF Posted May 5, 2017 Share #98 Posted May 5, 2017 Kingston has a web page in wich guarantees 100% compatibility with M10 for some specific cards (of its brand obviously). The particularity of Leica begins to become a marketing reason... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruby Posted May 5, 2017 Share #99 Posted May 5, 2017 Kingston has a web page in wich guarantees 100% compatibility with M10 for some specific cards (of its brand obviously). The particularity of Leica begins to become a marketing reason... Please give us the link. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnoble Posted May 5, 2017 Share #100 Posted May 5, 2017 The issue for me isn't even that the M10 is sensitive to SD cards (though no other digital camera I have ever owned other than Leica's has been - including the Panasonics they slapped their name on), but that they have made no attempt to alert their customers and publish a list of compatible SD cards. That for me is the issue. Jager has done a great job of explaining the engineering complexities and why a company Leica's size might be struggling with this issue, But this forum has established, I think, that there are indeed specific SD cards that seem to work for everyone so why wouldn't Leica publish a list and here's a crazy idea: ship each $7,000 camera body with a $20 SD card known to work. Just to avoid their customers going out on their first shoot and finding the card they purchased doesn't work as I experienced and many others no doubt. Just seems an indifference or arrogance that is unbecoming to a company in Leica's position and only tarnishes their brand. I'm guessing that for every customer happy to spend their time doing research on this forum there's another who doesn't and thinks their new camera is broken and is at the least wasting their time and that of Leica support or the dealer or returning the camera if they bought it by mail order. In my case, a Leica dealer actually formatted my card in the camera and sent me on my way and didn't notice that the formatting was problematic (no status indicator) which is an indication of a compatibility issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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