jaapv Posted April 2, 2017 Share #381 Posted April 2, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) And you make this sweeping conclusion/condemnation on the basis of one model release and some marketing hype? I'm curious, when they released the M Monochrome, did you presume they had given up on color photography? When they released the M-D, did you presume they had given up on LCD screens? It seems a bit premature to presume anything on the basis of one model release. No, that is a spurious argument. The Monochrom was and is a specialized parallel model, not the mainstream one. As was the M-D. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 Hi jaapv, Take a look here So how long before video capture functionality arrives?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted April 2, 2017 Share #382 Posted April 2, 2017 As, of course, is an EVF Indeed. So why was that not dropped? Together with the LCD it would have slimmed the camera down even more... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted April 2, 2017 Share #383 Posted April 2, 2017 Indeed. So why was that not dropped? I'm in the camp that thinks they had no choice with video, for heat dissipation reasons, and have made a rather unfortunate virtue (sending the wrong message) of a necessity. But what do I know? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted April 2, 2017 Share #384 Posted April 2, 2017 I'm in the camp that thinks they had no choice with video, for heat dissipation reasons, and have made a rather unfortunate virtue (sending the wrong message) of a necessity. But what do I know? I work in product management (enterprise software) and know that you should not send wrong message about future product to your customers (if you want them to remain your customers). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted April 2, 2017 Share #385 Posted April 2, 2017 No, that is a spurious argument. The Monochrom was and is a specialized parallel model, not the mainstream one. As was the M-D. Well then, perhaps video will be relegated to a specialized parallel model as well. But you won't know whether or not that will happen for a few years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted April 2, 2017 Share #386 Posted April 2, 2017 M5 - a meter? Making it taller? Abomination! M8 - digital? No! Film will never be beaten! M9 - well, that was pretty good, actually, but Leica lied about full frame, and the dropped the R10! M(240) - we prefer CCD! M10 - they dropped video! This is the end of innovation! The M is a retro, luxury ornament for niche dillettantes! Nulla novum sub sole. For 60 years, the M camera has been a refined stills camera, with incremental improvement, and for most of those 60 years, Leica has offered less technology in the M camera than has been available - the M has always been about the bare essentials. This isn't new, and nor is the complaining - complete with strawman arguments and zero sum logic disguising toys being thrown out of cots. What is most likely is Leica decided to make some very good improvements with the M10, and in the process discarded video, which was never any good anyway (compared to the rest of the camera). There will be very good technical reasons for this which we can only guess at. What is obvious, though, is that if video remained, it needed considerable improvement. Leica will have known that from the SL. To improve video in the M10 will surely have meant significant changes to the M10 which Leica won't have been prepared to make. So, small improvement to what was pretty rubbish video, or leave it out and play to the M strengths? Pretty clear strategy, I would think, and a very good one at that. The real question has been for some time - what will the next M variants be? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted April 2, 2017 Share #387 Posted April 2, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Problem is.. Leica is mainly marketed to an older more affluent demographic.. Those who can actually afford it.. And because they take so long to integrate..even minor..."improvements"..customers..waiting..years...and years.. The actual people that they are marketing this stuff to..are aging up real fast.. Myself included.. And simply cant wait for these "improvements" to take place..or even care to anymore.. And simply leave Leica for good.. I don't see this strategy working out for them in the long run..and would not be surprised to see them in financial difficulities in a few years..when the people that have the M10 type retro cams.. are finished buying stuff.. And there is little to no market for their newer offerings anymore..certainly not young people..and not older either.. Similar to the wrist watch industry...as they got arrogant and crazy with their pricing..and resulting in the whole Swiss watch industry being in total freefall when the Chinese market dried up...even Rolex is playing it safe these days.. I hope Leica continues to work things out though and perhaps they will..and I still buy lenses..but bodies..nope...no way..not for that kind of bread..or whats inside.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted April 2, 2017 Share #388 Posted April 2, 2017 Sorry, I don't get that at all. The Leica M has always been expensive, and has always taken 35mm stills photos. Their latest film camera, the M-A doesn't even have a meter; they still make the M7 and MP; they offer LCD-less and CFA-less monochrome cameras - what "improvements" are you waiting for. The M3 I just sold works as well as when it was new. I certainly don't believe for a second that the M market is shrinking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted April 2, 2017 Share #389 Posted April 2, 2017 Such a lot of fuss! Sure I get you/we all like to talk, argue, theorize, and rarely get it right. OTOH, Leica did get it right. They gave me exactly what I wanted, but I said I would never buy another camera, ever! I have too many. So now I am into my second week with a new M10. And if/when I die, another old fart (he's still young at present) will come along and replace me and keep buying Leicas. I can't see the end. I'm smiling. So is Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted April 3, 2017 Share #390 Posted April 3, 2017 Similar to the wrist watch industry...as they got arrogant and crazy with their pricing..and resulting in the whole Swiss watch industry being in total freefall when the Chinese market dried up...even Rolex is playing it safe these days.. So are you suggesting that Rolex aren't going to fit a video function into their latest watches? How ridiculous, even if poorly implemented it should be there. You never know when you might need the odd video sequence and I'm sure that just because its sub-standard and not up to broadcast quality, it wouldn't demean the brand. Would it ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted April 3, 2017 Share #391 Posted April 3, 2017 OTOH, Leica did get it right. They gave me exactly what I wanted... This! From everything I have seen and read, the M10 is exactly the camera I have wanted from Leica ever since I purchased my M9. Congrats on your purchase, erl. I am eagerly awaiting my shipping notification from Tamarkin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted April 3, 2017 Share #392 Posted April 3, 2017 I certainly don't believe for a second that the M market is shrinking. clearly it isn't...ive never seen so many first time M buyers. Not sure why, but the M10 seems to have brought in an unusually large number of new Leica owners. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted April 3, 2017 Share #393 Posted April 3, 2017 Not sure why, but the M10 seems to have brought in an unusually large number of new Leica owners. Dropping the video bit is what's done it (ducks) . Perhaps the excessive complexity of many cameras means that the relative simplicity of an M camera is more appealing. Who knows? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stef63 Posted April 3, 2017 Share #394 Posted April 3, 2017 Dropping the video bit is what's done it (ducks) . Perhaps the excessive complexity of many cameras means that the relative simplicity of an M camera is more appealing. Who knows? Of course, and this message thread has helped a lot... Imagine this : DSLR user wants something new because internet tells him DSLR's are old school. Considers Leica. Uses Google to find more info on Leica. Stumbles on this forum. Sees this message thread and heated discussions about video or the absence of it on the M10. Didn't use video or only occasionally on his DSLR. Learns here that camera's without video are for purists. Wants to upgrade is photography skills and become a purist. The fastest way to achieve this is by buying a Leica M10..... Voilà. Leica marketing has worked .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted April 3, 2017 Share #395 Posted April 3, 2017 All I have to say is this... Lets just say...you are worth 3 million $$..and you have 2 million to invest in a company for profit...and keep 1 million for yourself.. So what do you do loyal Leica afficianados..what do you do...with your hard earned 2 mil?... Do you invest it in Leica stocks..specifically ..the M cam division... Think about that for a min.. I'll tell you what I would do...not one red penny..would get near Leica and Co.. For obvious reasons.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted April 3, 2017 Share #396 Posted April 3, 2017 Academic as you can't buy stock in Leica camera anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2017 Share #397 Posted April 3, 2017 Still, I have been analyzing my sense of disappointment with the M 10. It is not the camera, which clearly is a superior product which surely will find many enthusiastic buyers. It is the direction in which Leica is steering the M system. I was hoping for a further development for it to be the best tool to take into the Kalahari, on an Amazon expedition, to the top of the Himalayas or into a war zone. Instead they decided to build the best retro camera in the world. Jaap - Just read through this thread for the first time, and your statement is relevant for my situation, say, as a case study. Last month I sold my M9-P and MM to a dealer in Bangkok, where used Leica prices are relatively high, for a US$ price a bit better than I could have realized on eBay — without the botheration of a private sale. I skipped the M240 because I didn't like the color rendition — we disagree on the proposition of a custom camera profile solving this problem. Three weeks ago I bought an M10 in Paris but, busy with work, have only shot the equivalent of one roll of film, mostly at ISO 3200, which I feels somewhat like ISO 640 with the M9, a speed that I liked on that camera. Now, I also bought the EVF, so I am, again thinking of a trip to Africa — over the last few years I asked you for advice of what I might take for an African safari that, successively, never materialized. You mention the Kalahari. In 2008 and 2009, I went Namibia and Botswana. I shot landscape with the M8.2 and wildlife with the Nikon D300 and the Nikkor 70-208/2.8 lens, occasionally using the TC14-E teleconverter, giving me the FOV up to 588mm, but I rarely went beyond 400mm. I was ecstatic about the results. Now, I'm thinking about what I could use with the M10 for wildlife, although the safari may not materialize. If I didn't want to spend additional funds, I could use the M10 with the Macro-Elma-M 4/90 and the Tele-Elmar 4/135 — which I've always considered to be an APO lens incognito. For longer focal lengths I could use my Visoflex III (removing its viewfinder and its shutter arm) with my Telyt 4/200 (not considered a good lens) and my Telyt 6.8/400, which I've always liked. This would work, but would involve a lot of lens changes in a bouncing vehicle. Isn't there an Vario-R lens that I could buy in a range of about 80-280 with a 1.4 tele-converter that I could buy that would work reasonably well? I ask this question because I wonder whether you would not consider the M10 to be a good camera for the Kalahari on a one-off safari, rather than a prime tool for wildlife photography. Otherwise, I'm now wondering whether to buy the new Summary 5.6/28... _______________ Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 3, 2017 Share #398 Posted April 3, 2017 I have been using all manner of M cameras for safaris over the years. The results from the M240 with the Vario-Elmar R 105-280 and 1.4x and/or 2x Apo extenders are superior and the combo is quite easy to use and focus, except for very fast action, although even that can be done. After all, it was the best long zoom in the world until the SL lens came along, and the difference is marginal. That Vario-Elmar with the M10 should get you mind-blowing results. However, this year I decided to cut down drastically on weight and bulk - not getting any younger- and switched to Panasonic, albeit with their "Leica" lenses and top-end 20 MP sensor. So yes my Vario-Elmar is in the buy-and-sell, and so should be my extenders, and I am leaving for Johannesburg tomorrow with less than half the weight and bulk on my back. In fact, if I were not taking a backup camera and quite a few odds and ends I could carry it in a small Billingham for Leica bag. I'm sure I'll miss my M (and R) gear after nearly thirty years but I do think it will add to my experience - I hope ... BTW, never change lenses on a moving vehicle - it is a recipe for disaster. Those first over-excited shots are always dross for the round archive anyway. Wait until things have settled down, including the bouncing of the vehicle and fellow passengers, and start shooting then. It will give the animals time to carry on with doing interesting things - except Lions- they'll cock an eye and keep on sleeping. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted April 4, 2017 Share #399 Posted April 4, 2017 All I have to say is this... Lets just say...you are worth 3 million $$..and you have 2 million to invest in a company for profit...and keep 1 million for yourself.. So what do you do loyal Leica afficianados..what do you do...with your hard earned 2 mil?... Do you invest it in Leica stocks..specifically ..the M cam division... Think about that for a min.. I'll tell you what I would do...not one red penny..would get near Leica and Co.. For obvious reasons.. Why would you give your money to anyone else to play with. If you have amassed that amount you must be competent. Just keep making it work for you, don't let somebody else take a cut, or all of it! Sorry, my philosphies are uber simple, but I have survived. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted April 4, 2017 Share #400 Posted April 4, 2017 All I have to say is this...Lets just say...you are worth 3 million $$..and you have 2 million to invest in a company for profit...and keep 1 million for yourself..So what do you do loyal Leica afficianados..what do you do...with your hard earned 2 mil?...Do you invest it in Leica stocks..specifically ..the M cam division...Think about that for a min..I'll tell you what I would do...not one red penny..would get near Leica and Co..For obvious reasons.. No intelligent investor would invest two-thirds of their net worth in any single company, particularly a privately held company with no liquidity for the asset. Your post is essentially meaningless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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