So how long before video capture functionality arrives?

[Stef63]

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Should Leica have come straight out and said: :"Sadly Video had to go as it was, for technical reasons, impossible to incorporate in this body size, but our aim is to reintroduce it in a future model, possibly in a hi-tech M line beside a stripped version" 

 

 

Maybe this is what they have in mind.  If so I doubt they found it a good idea to be so open minded about that future roadmap upon introduction of the M10.

[jaapv]

That is their privilege. However, I have a strong dislike of fig-leaf marketing speak.

[timde]

Its interesting to read through this. Leica marketing and product plans change each few years, as ideas and products fail, however I think the real strategy is quite simple:

 

Leica has a small group of customers who can potentially afford their camera, that group is fairly well known to Leica because they already own one or more Leica cameras, and that group is fairly loyal.

 

Loyalty is perhaps partly because of lack of choice, a situation which is rapidly changing. The Premium market has a new entrant who seems to offer a genuine alternative, we should expect _that_ trend to continue, and Leica to experience difficulties attracting new customers (and retaining less loyal customers).

 

In face of that, the current product strategy seems to be to:

1. Sell more than one camera to each Leica customer by deliberate differentiation. Preferably, an M and an SL.
2. Protect the iconic nature of the M.
3. Under no circumstance, produce a product which competes directly against the M.

But for all of that, I did read through the Leica financial report, and they seem to have a large amount of turnover related to Fixed Lens cameras. And while some of that is the Q, I wonder if most of it is the Panasonic rebranded cameras ...

 

 

... I would guess the current "marketing strategy" will change again soon enough, and there will be a M10V released (at a premium) because of people like JAAPV who are loyal, have enough money, and want that Video function in an M rather than an SL.

 

If Leica is selling an M, an M240, an M262, an M-A, and M-D and a few others I forgot the name of .... then they can offer an M10V!

 

 

The marketing will be the usual pile of drivel that comes from Leica ... it seems nothing will change that  

[Lax Jought]

 

If Leica is selling an M, an M240, an M262, an M-A, and M-D and a few others I forgot the name of .... then they can offer an M10V!

 

 

You forgot to take into account the Leica sub-demographic who take things personally at the thought of any minute increase in weight, width, and functionality.

[Dirk Mandeville]

Jaap, you contradict yourself. On the one hand you state that the M10 should not have LV and EVF if they were really turning it into "a basic stills camera" and then you say they are turning inwards to refine "the simple stills camera without bells and whistles" and eschewing innovation. No, all they are eschewing is video.

 

You miss the mark in defining Leica's strategy. They made clear that their focus is to produce the best stills camera possible. Not just produce a "retro" stills camera. You put that limitation on them. They never stated that. Anything that supports the goal of still photography (which LV and EVF certainly do) they will include and try to develop further. Anything that detracts from or hinders that goal (i.e. video) is removed. The limitation to still photography does not limit technological evolution, nor does it make the M a "dead-end" camera. This is just hyperbole.

 

There will still be progression. Do you really believe that they will suddenly stop innovating the M system? You don't think the M11 and M12 will have further technological improvements that will advance the practice of still photography? If so, I think you are wildly mistaken.

[lct]

[...] Do you really believe that they will suddenly stop innovating the M system? [...]

 

You nailed it on that one i'm afraid. Innovation will be for the next M as Mirrorless i suspect. Rangefinders are being sidelined from now on. Thank you "Das Wesentliche".

[LocalHero1953]

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You nailed it on that one i'm afraid. Innovation will be for the next M as Mirrorless i suspect. Rangefinders are being sidelined from now on. Thank you "Das Wesentliche".

Agreed.

I'm sure Leica is desperate to grow its market. They won't do that with the M10 and by appealing to its 'core' current owners. That's for the SL, Q and TL, which have more potential to evolve. Meanwhile, with the M10 they are securing their base in the M system that continues to provide their main income stream.

[Dirk Mandeville]

You nailed it on that one i'm afraid. Innovation will be for the next M as Mirrorless i suspect. Rangefinders are being sidelined from now on. Thank you "Das Wesentliche".

Seriously? You think they are just going to throw away the one thing that differentiates them from other manufacturers and has helped them sell a ton of cameras over the years? Throw it away and go the mirrorless route, rather than innovate and bring the rangefinder system into the 21st century? I guess them patenting a hybrid opto-electronic rangefinder mechanism a couple of years ago was just for show. Something to disguise their true intentions of abandoning rangefinders altogether.

 

My God, the pessimism in this forum is unbelievable! Leica removes video (which hadn't even been available in an M for that long) and suddenly it's the end of rangefinders, the end of Leica, heck, maybe even the end of photography as we know it, according to some of the histrionics on this forum. /rant

 

For funsies, I just did a Flickr search with the keyword "Leica M10" and came back with about 5500 results. Despite the fact that the camera was announced just over a couple of months ago and most people who want one haven't been able to get their hands on one yet. I think predicting the demise of the rangefinder camera due to Leica removing video may be just a tad premature.

[LocalHero1953]

I can just imagine the reception a hybrid opto-electronic rangefinder would get in this thread........!

 

But seriously, the M10 is a great camera but, video-loss aside, it is not a big step forward from the M240 - evolution, certainly, but it is hard to see how it is going to enter the C21 any more decisively without introducing features that many here would be unhappy with.

[Dirk Mandeville]

I can just imagine the reception a hybrid opto-electronic rangefinder would get in this thread........!

 

But seriously, the M10 is a great camera but, video-loss aside, it is not a big step forward from the M240 - evolution, certainly, but it is hard to see how it is going to enter the C21 any more decisively without introducing features that many here would be unhappy with.

With fits and starts, I suppose. The Leica faithful have handled the transition to digital sensors, Live View and EVF (none of which were without their issues). I suspect they will handle evolution of the rangefinder mechanism to something more modern, especially if the benefits outweigh the negatives. There will always be those who loudly complain and lament the loss of tradition, however.

[lct]

Seriously? You think they are just going to throw away the one thing that differentiates them from other manufacturers [...]

 

Throw away? Who said this? Digital rangefinders are simply being treated the same way as film Ms. Legacy cameras forever. A bit of novelty from time to time and you're done. That's exactly what most M10 users seem to be happy about if i read this thread right. Niche conservatism in all its glory. All's well that ends well.

[Dirk Mandeville]

Throw away? Who said this? Digital rangefinders are simply being treated the same way as film Ms. Legacy cameras forever. A bit of novelty from time to time and you're done. That's exactly what most M10 users seem to be happy about if i read this thread right. Niche conservatism in all its glory. All's well that ends well.

I think you are vastly misunderstanding both Leica's strategy and the overall M user base, perhaps intentionally so for dramatic effect.

[lct]

Hard to ignore the facts. It's not me who invented the new "Das Wesentliche" strategy. I preferred "Best of both worlds" personally but it was too difficult a route i guess.

[jaapv]

Jaap, you contradict yourself. On the one hand you state that the M10 should not have LV and EVF if they were really turning it into "a basic stills camera" and then you say they are turning inwards to refine "the simple stills camera without bells and whistles" and eschewing innovation. No, all they are eschewing is video.

 

You miss the mark in defining Leica's strategy. They made clear that their focus is to produce the best stills camera possible. Not just produce a "retro" stills camera. You put that limitation on them. They never stated that. Anything that supports the goal of still photography (which LV and EVF certainly do) they will include and try to develop further. Anything that detracts from or hinders that goal (i.e. video) is removed. The limitation to still photography does not limit technological evolution, nor does it make the M a "dead-end" camera. This is just hyperbole.

 

There will still be progression. Do you really believe that they will suddenly stop innovating the M system? You don't think the M11 and M12 will have further technological improvements that will advance the practice of still photography? If so, I think you are wildly mistaken.

I said they shouldn't have? You should reread my post. I said that is the logical consequence of " das Wesentliche" something you agree with - not I. The one with the contradictory strategy is Leica. And yes - they have stopped innovating the M system and reverted to refining it.

[01af]

And yes—they have stopped innovating the M system and reverted to refining it.

 

Well—that's true for sixty years now ... most of the time. So that's a trivial and hence, pointless statement to make. After the advent of the M3 in 1954 there were only two innovations, basically, with decades of refinements in-between. The two innovations were TTL light metering and switching to digital.

 

And this is exactly what makes the M system so special.

[Dirk Mandeville]

And yes - they have stopped innovating the M system and reverted to refining it.

And you make this sweeping conclusion/condemnation on the basis of one model release and some marketing hype? I'm curious, when they released the M Monochrome, did you presume they had given up on color photography? When they released the M-D, did you presume they had given up on LCD screens?

 

It seems a bit premature to presume anything on the basis of one model release.

[LocalHero1953]

Well—that's true for sixty years now ... most of the time. So that's a trivial and hence, pointless statement to make. After the advent of the M3 in 1954 there were only two innovations, basically, with decades of refinements in-between. The two innovations were TTL light metering and switching to digital.

 

And this is exactly what makes the M system so special.

In comparison with switching from film to digital, the addition of video is just a minor refinement!

[Dirk Mandeville]

In comparison with switching from film to digital, the addition of video is just a minor refinement!

As was the removal of it.

[jaapv]

In comparison with switching from film to digital, the addition of video is just a minor refinement!

But still, a logical consequence of the switch to digital (or rather CMos)

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[LocalHero1953]

But still, a logical consequence of the switch to digital (or rather CMos)

As, of course, is an EVF