HubertusBigend Posted January 23, 2017 Share #41 Posted January 23, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Lots of people including me think/thought the M9 was smaller than the M240. Jaapv told me they were the same. I said hey look here are the dimensions. He said they are just measuring the thumb wheel as it sticks out, which gives a bigger dimension. At first I would not believe him, LOL, but after lots of investigation, I'm pretty sure he is right. Funny thing is now at FM a long time member is arguing with me and claiming 240 is bigger (he has neither) I can't believe nobody ever put calipers on these two bodies to settle this. I don't have the M9 or M-E so can't measure up (and didn't want to be the weirdo in the camera store measuring Leicas with a caliper), but handling an M240 & M9 back to back in a camera shop the only major thickness differences seem to be the control pad (protrudes more on the M9) etc and lack of thumb grip on the M9. Oddly there are weight and material differences that make the M 240 feel larger for some reason. I also have the M10 now, here's are my experiences so far mostly VS the M 262 : In hand it's almost indistinguishable in size to the M7 / M6 TTL, it also feels like the same weight as the special black paint brass editions of the M6 (although the M10 is still a bit heavier this isn't noticeable) .The camera feels dense, solid and perfectly balanced throughout, the body does not feel hollow areas of the M 262. The M 262 is indeed lighter but my issue with it's size. For me the weight of the M10 isn't an issue as it balances the camera, in particular with the smaller size allowing good grip of the camera and much easier secure access to controls than previous digital Ms. I've found it easier to shoot in lower light for this reason, nailing shots I would tend to get with the M6 but would also tend to fail at with with M 262 (this likely also has to do with the new sensor). Size is a huge deal for me, I brought my M6 everywhere for several years as, with a fairly compact lens, it would still fit on my person easily (either sung under a coat or in a large pocket). With the extra size of the M 262 I found myself not doing it so much, it simply got in the way. The M10 has really solved this for me. In terms of IQ and use - the M10 really excels over my M 262 in a few ways. Immediately noticeable for me is the auto white balance actually works perfectly, it nails the correct setting even in tricky situations such as rooms with mixtures of light sources and colour temperatures (e.g. a mix of daylight, warm LED and cold fluorescent in one shot). It also nails colour temperature in low light situations. The M 262 generally failed at this and I would have to fix in post or set a custom value. Equally the colour temp presets seem actually useful so far (I've found the M 262's preset values to be a bit off) Images straight out of the camera are also totally true to life in terms of colour rendition, consistent even at higher ISOs (3200. 6400), not something I found with the M 262. From some test shots I would say the highlights from the M10 looks fantastic, images have a huge amount more depth even in tricky lighting situations. In short the M10 is also a more useful camera in a smaller and familiar M6/7 size package. It has all the extra features I would want, and found myself using a Sony A7s II for (a camera I bought strictly for my video work) such as live view focussing and using non-coupled lenses but it does these better than the Sony, without the bloat or complication I've experienced with cameras like the Sony. I've only used the camera since Friday but my initial experiences have been perfect, I remember my first days with the M 262 felt like a steep learning curve and compromises in terms of getting the camera to achieve what I wanted. The M10 however feels like the perfect amplification to the analogue Ms in terms of shooting experience and also will comfortably sit beside digital cameras by other brands in terms of IQ (it feels equally capable but consciously with less features rather than hamstrung by the technology) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 Hi HubertusBigend, Take a look here Leica M10 vs M240, M9, M8. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mmx_2 Posted January 23, 2017 Share #42 Posted January 23, 2017 As a major point of interest (and main selling point) for the M10 is the camera's dimensions would be good to crowd source actual measurements (weight & dimensions) for the previous cameras. The M10 is the first digital M Leica to be marketed by Leica as being the same size as the film M cameras, marketing images compare it directly to the M4 and official specs place it at 1mm deeper, with other dimensions almost matching the M7 / M6 TTL. However official measuring methodology seems to be inconsistent, in particular for the M8 & M9, not allowing for direct useful comparisons. Dimensions most commonly quoted for the M8 / M9 / M-E are both: 139 × 80 × 37mm (and listed in this google doc). We see below that those are almost the same as the film cameras, with the critical dimension, the depth, being thinner ! Clearly this isn't the case, the M8 / M9 / M-E were all much thicker cameras so I just wanted to finally debunk this as I keep seeing this info recycled when it clearly is incorrect. For comparison here are the film camera dimensions W x H x D (from official sources) : MP: 138 × 77 × 38 mm M4/M6: 138 × 77 × 38 mm M6 TTL: 138 × 79.5 × 38 mm M7: 138 × 79.5 × 38 mm M8/M9/M-E: 139 × 80 × 37 mm (from official sources) M10 : 139 × 80 × 39 mm I can confirm using a digital vernier caliper my 1985 M6 classic is : 138mm wide (excluding strap lugs) 77mm high (from bottom plate to top, excluding angled winder on M6) 38mm depth (approx at widest point: ISO selector to lens release cowl*. measuring ISO to frameline selector will add slightly more depth) *Where one would actually hold the M6 in use it is thinner, i.e. back door to front is 34mm, and it's 36mm if battery door is included. Top plate of the M6/M4 is 33.5mm deep (excluding eye piece, flash socket, logo dot etc) The M10 is being promoted using this dimension, top plate depth coming in at 33.75mm --------------------------- Images found online comparing the M8/9 with the film Ms clearly show that the digital cameras are indeed much thicker, and users of both will confirm (and have complained) the M8/9 were much larger cameras. Equally the size difference between the M8/9 and M typ 240/262 seems to be negligible visually and in handling, and not the extremes the dimensions quoted present. Top view image comparing the M9-P with the M8 and M6: https://www.flickr.com/photos/stevieraveon/7147063635 Top view image comparing the M typ 240 with the M9 and M6 : https://www.flickr.com/photos/boozooz/15873495901 (M9 and M 240 appear very similar in size here) Top view of M typ 240 with M6: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/50d0bee7e4b07abde4169be1/t/539b5229e4b06e3875a3e038/1402688043137/ Lastly the bottom of the M typ 262 compared with the M9 : http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5177c8d1e4b084b94e4b5c0e/t/5183a805e4b0046126d1462c/1367582728975/KJD_0939.jpg (M9 appears thicker due to it's widest point, the control pad, being of greater depth than the 262s. Otherwise appear very similar) --------- I also own a M typ 262. Official dimensions are stated as W x H x D : 139 × 80 × 42 mm (for both M typ 240 & 262) I can confirm, using a digital vernier caliper my camera is: 42mm deep (from thumb rest to lens mount) 138.5mm wide (excluding lugs, 139mm wide when including base plate retainer) 81mm high (base to top plate) Top plate is 38mm deep (41.2mm deep at thumb rest) Thickness of the area one would grip the camera, with right hand, in use is between 36.7 - 38.7mm thickness --------- I suspect the official / circulated dimensions of the M8/9's thickness/depth (37mm) aren't the camera's actual / widest dimensions but perhaps relate to the top plate or where one would grip the camera which would make sense as it puts it closer to the M262 actual dimensions above. Edit : as confirmed by UliWer Perhaps this is an error, perhaps Leica fudged the dims when introducing the M8 ? The methodology for measuring the film Ms and the M240/262 seems to be about the same, i.e. much more honest and mostly taken from maximum values. Leica M10 dimensions are quoted at: 139 × 80 × 39mm As mentioned before top plate thickness of 33.75mm mentioned in marketing materials seems to exclude thumb grip. A marketing image seems to suggest that it matches the M4 in depth dimensions, a first for a digital M : https://www.instagram.com/p/BPbJwQPD6RM/?tagged=leicam10 see also: https://www.instagram.com/p/BPcS5n5AsBc/ https://www.instagram.com/p/BPbRH0vBGyW/ Lastly Leica M10 & Leica M typ 240 : https://www.instagram.com/p/BPbuFm7glOA/ Thanks for this! I have added the links in the spread sheet and some other data. When I get the time, I will take a comparsion photo of a M6, M8, M9 and M240 (don't own the M10 yet ): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XsQ_g9n3t_5ewJqctEAu7VvqFfzrc1wu4_9St2k5r1c/edit?usp=sharing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Warwick Posted January 23, 2017 Share #43 Posted January 23, 2017 As an M240 user, I'm interested to know what people see as the difference in image quality between the M10 and M240....in favor of the M10, it seems better color accuracy for sure. Anything else? Better pixel quality / acuity? (samples I've seen off the M10 seem to need little sharpening I thought....more M246 in that regard than M240?). Any more apparent resolution that is extracted despite the M10 being the same 24mp as the M240? Many thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardM Posted January 23, 2017 Share #44 Posted January 23, 2017 From examples i have seen i see the M10 shots are less saturated in comparison to M240 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 23, 2017 Share #45 Posted January 23, 2017 That would be the least of differences. A minimal slider move and the saturation will match. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 23, 2017 Share #46 Posted January 23, 2017 As an M240 user, I'm interested to know what people see as the difference in image quality between the M10 and M240....in favor of the M10, it seems better color accuracy for sure. Anything else? Better pixel quality / acuity? (samples I've seen off the M10 seem to need little sharpening I thought....more M246 in that regard than M240?). Any more apparent resolution that is extracted despite the M10 being the same 24mp as the M240? Many thanks Sean Reid has just done a comparison between M240, SL and M10. An interesting read, which did not send me scramblling for my credit card . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithlaban.co.uk Posted January 23, 2017 Share #47 Posted January 23, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sean Reid has just done a comparison between M240, SL and M10. An interesting read, which did not send me scramblling for my credit card. Hi Jaap, can you give us non-subscribers a brief summary? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 23, 2017 Share #48 Posted January 23, 2017 Well, that was the last part of sentence . I cannot really give a summary as that would be unfair to Sean but the article gives a very good insight in the subtle differences. The obvious is that the main differences can be seen a higher and high ISO values, the cameras are close at lower ISO. My (not Sean's, I won't comment on his!) conclusion was that image quality is not much of an upgrade argument for the average user. It is not a bad idea to subscribe to his site. Not only this article is well done and informative, he is very productive lately, including the M10, and the new site interface is excellent both on the computer and on portable devices. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsmphoto Posted January 23, 2017 Share #49 Posted January 23, 2017 Well, that was the last part of sentence . I cannot really give a summary as that would be unfair to Sean but the article gives a very good insight in the subtle differences. The obvious is that the main differences can be seen a higher and high ISO values, the cameras are close at lower ISO. My (not Sean's, I won't comment on his!) conclusion was that image quality is not much of an upgrade argument for the average user. It is not a bad idea to subscribe to his site. Not only this article is well done and informative, he is very productive lately, including the M10, and the new site interface is excellent both on the computer and on portable devices. No question. I've found Sean's ongoing series of reviews on the M10 have been thorough and incredibly helpful. Well worth his subscription fee all by themselves. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted January 23, 2017 Share #50 Posted January 23, 2017 I gave in and subscribed to Sean (even when I have decided not to upgrade to M10). Let me simply say that it is worth every penny.... if you like the mundane stuff of technical nitpicking. You know the kind you like to read when you have nothing much to do when it is raining and cold outside and you are sitting next to fireplace with your fav single malt. Well, I am an engineer and do have to read manuals and documentations therefore Sean's read is not that different. It certainly is not The Lords of the Rings but packed with useful information. I will say thumbs up. Update: Combine Sean's page with free Ming's blog and you have everything you want to know about photography. There.. I helped everybody... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhoh7 Posted January 23, 2017 Share #51 Posted January 23, 2017 Well, that was the last part of sentence . I cannot really give a summary as that would be unfair to Sean but the article gives a very good insight in the subtle differences. The obvious is that the main differences can be seen a higher and high ISO values, the cameras are close at lower ISO. My (not Sean's, I won't comment on his!) conclusion was that image quality is not much of an upgrade argument for the average user. It is not a bad idea to subscribe to his site. Not only this article is well done and informative, he is very productive lately, including the M10, and the new site interface is excellent both on the computer and on portable devices. What? I don't believe my eyes. We have a new Puts! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterlenz Posted January 24, 2017 Share #52 Posted January 24, 2017 My main M10 concern when compared to previous digital Ms is reliability. I got an M8 as soon as they were available. The M8 saga should be familiar to folks here. I have been following Leica's full frame introductions and fallout from users. My interest in moving up from my M8 ceased when I read stuff like this: https://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20130628_1-LeicaM240-lockup.html My hope is that Leica has finally figured out how to make a reliable electronic camera. The thinner body is the icing on the cake compared to reliability, which I hope exists. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 24, 2017 Share #53 Posted January 24, 2017 My main M10 concern when compared to previous digital Ms is reliability. I got an M8 as soon as they were available. The M8 saga should be familiar to folks here. I have been following Leica's full frame introductions and fallout from users. My interest in moving up from my M8 ceased when I read stuff like this: https://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20130628_1-LeicaM240-lockup.html My hope is that Leica has finally figured out how to make a reliable electronic camera. The thinner body is the icing on the cake compared to reliability, which I hope exists. I hate to sound Polly-anna-ish, but if you keep reading diggylloyd, you will never buy a Leica product again ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterlenz Posted January 24, 2017 Share #54 Posted January 24, 2017 I hate to sound Polly-anna-ish, but if you keep reading diggylloyd, you will never buy a Leica product again ... He may have bought into the Leica M system for the wrong reason. The SL is closer to what he wants (live view with high res EVF), however, he had issues with it as well. Those of us that are older mainly need an EVF because we can't use the rear screen without glasses on or a lupe (I have a Zacuto finder for this - nice but does add bulk) so I can see where is coming from. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted January 24, 2017 Share #55 Posted January 24, 2017 My main M10 concern when compared to previous digital Ms is reliability. I got an M8 as soon as they were available. The M8 saga should be familiar to folks here. I have been following Leica's full frame introductions and fallout from users. My interest in moving up from my M8 ceased when I read stuff like this: https://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20130628_1-LeicaM240-lockup.html My hope is that Leica has finally figured out how to make a reliable electronic camera. The thinner body is the icing on the cake compared to reliability, which I hope exists. I have owned many dozens of Leicas and every digital M...never had a single issue other than strap-gate, which didn't affect me, but had it fixed regardless. Do you really believe that Leica has a higher defect rate than any other camera manufacture? If you live in fear of a defective camera...then you will never own a new one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asiafish Posted January 24, 2017 Share #56 Posted January 24, 2017 I got used to the thickness of the M240, just as I got used to doing without the frameline preview. And after 45 years I'm used to the scanty eye relief of M cameras. I wear glasses and am still able to press my face against the eyepiece enough to use the 28mm frames on the rare occasions I use that focal length. None of the other feature changes of the M10 matter to me. I shoot with 2 bodies, so because the M10 uses a different EVF, battery and charger, upgrading only one of my bodies would mean traveling with more gear...something I do not wish to do. Changing up both bodies doubles the cost of upgrading. What pleases me most about the M10 is seeing that Leica is not abandoning the concept of a mechanical range-viewfinder. It means that if in a few years my M240's become uneconomical to repair, there will be a viable path for me to stay with the kind of camera I have enjoyed my entire photographic life. So bravo to Leica for coming up with a winner. Doubles are annoying. I really fell for the screenless M-D when it was released, and took the M10 release as an opportunity to sell my M-E and buy a very gently used M-D (570 clicks) at a deeply discounted price. Now I have extra chargers and batteries since my M Monochrom v1 shared with the M-E. Its a small price to pay though as the battery life on the M-D means I can usually leave the charger at home and even a second battery is more of a luxury than a necessity for most outings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterlenz Posted January 24, 2017 Share #57 Posted January 24, 2017 I have owned many dozens of Leicas and every digital M...never had a single issue other than strap-gate, which didn't affect me, but had it fixed regardless. Do you really believe that Leica has a higher defect rate than any other camera manufacture? If you live in fear of a defective camera...then you will never own a new one. My M8 has stopped abruptly not unlike what Lloyd Chambers described for the M240 many times. There are reports of the same issue reported in this forum. I also own a number of DSLRs - non have been as problematical as my M8. It may not be a defect so much as a bad design. As well there haven been a rather large number of firmware updates - long ago lost track of the count. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted January 24, 2017 Share #58 Posted January 24, 2017 ... It is not a bad idea to subscribe to [sean Reid's] site. Not only this article is well done and informative, he is very productive lately, including the M10, and the new site interface is excellent both on the computer and on portable devices. I cancelled my subscription after a couple of years of putting up with its horrible design because I found I couldn't go there and read anything without being frustrated and getting a headache. From what I read here, it sounds like he's finally updated it into the modern world and made it a good read again. Perhaps I will resubscribe and find out if it's to my satisfaction now. Thanks for the comments on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted January 24, 2017 Share #59 Posted January 24, 2017 My main M10 concern when compared to previous digital Ms is reliability. I got an M8 as soon as they were available. The M8 saga should be familiar to folks here. I have been following Leica's full frame introductions and fallout from users. My interest in moving up from my M8 ceased when I read stuff like this: https://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20130628_1-LeicaM240-lockup.html My hope is that Leica has finally figured out how to make a reliable electronic camera. The thinner body is the icing on the cake compared to reliability, which I hope exists. I suspect they have. My SL is a year and a quarter old and has been absolutely 100% flawless in operation since the day I bought it. I recall my M9 behaved a little oddly now and then, but neither my M-P240 nor my M-D262 have ever had even a moment's hiccup. I don't read Digilloyd or many of the other reviewers for anything other than entertainment... There are only a couple of folks who post online equipment reviews that I find credible and insightful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterlenz Posted January 25, 2017 Share #60 Posted January 25, 2017 I suspect they have. My SL is a year and a quarter old and has been absolutely 100% flawless in operation since the day I bought it. I recall my M9 behaved a little oddly now and then, but neither my M-P240 nor my M-D262 have ever had even a moment's hiccup. I don't read Digilloyd or many of the other reviewers for anything other than entertainment... There are only a couple of folks who post online equipment reviews that I find credible and insightful. I hope your suspicion proves to be true!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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