Whenever the new M arrives, who's going to buy one?

[lct]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Oh, I don't know - the ISO dial was on the left for every film camera I ever had, if I recall correctly.

 

But we used it once by roll...

[Bill Livingston]

If that picture is actually real (and its not confirmed yet, is it?) then an ISO dial in that location looks awful and adds unnecessary complication. If there is a simplified menu, the ISO dial should be on that, exposure compensation should be on the thumbwheel (or just go to manual) and the top plate should be as uncluttered as possible.

 

Why that carbuncle on the top plate to rub against a strap or just be awkward to use is beyond me. The ISO dial on the Edition 60 or the M-D is perfect... and on a screen in one of the menus as on the M8, M9 and M240 variants, is also fine. Why change????

 

I really wonder about design at Leica sometimes. You can see how the M5 happened... all the right things on a damned ugly camera... they had to simplify and return to the M4-2 and M4-P and then on to the M6 to get back to where the M5 should have been in the first place. It was all pretty obvious. And how long did that take?

 

The SL, fabulous camera that it is, is ugly too... why it was never designed to look like a small S is beyond me.

 

The Q is a fabulous camera in terms of design... and I love my M240P as everything just falls to hand naturally. Those who use the M-D clearly love the ergonomics of their cameras too... and the M Edition 60 is probably the most beautiful M camera of all... 

 

But this...?

 

If true, its a bit of a sidestep and another M5 in the making in terms of marketing success (or otherwise!).

 

I think someone at Leica needs to decide what an M camera actually is, and then make sure that subsequent versions meet those design values.

[Exodies]

If we can't decide, then I don't see how Leica can. It's one post, one design in here.

[IkarusJohn]

Oh, I don't know - it's their decision.

[Bill Livingston]

If we can't decide, then I don't see how Leica can. It's one post, one design in here.

 

 

 

Isn't that the point of this thread? Surely it can't be to reach a consensus???

 

 

(Funnily enough, on the other thread, I find myself agreeing, or at least being impressed by, the reasoning of each side in the debate. So although my 'likes' may seem contradictory, they are actually literal... I like the points being made and it makes me rethink my position. I doubt I will reach a conclusion... like all of us, I will wait to see what actually materialises and no doubt, at first, resist the change it will no doubt herald... and then, in time, change my view, embrace the changes and ultimately defend it, out of simple and ill thought out loyalty, until the next round in a few years time... )

 

The sensible thing though, is simply to enjoy the camera I currently own. It works beautifully and produces images only limited by my own creativity. Just like the rest of us on here I suspect.

 

But then, if we were only interested in results and the camera was a means to an end, we probably wouldn't even be on this forum, let alone comment...

[Peter Kilmister]

@Bill Livingston: A very articulate and poignant contribution which is much appreciated amongst the general cackle.

[Bill Livingston]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

[chris_tribble]

@Bill Livingston: A very articulate and poignant contribution which is much appreciated amongst the general cackle.

Agreed.

Also, apart from the megapixel sideshow I get the impression that Leica might be getting a lot of things right if the current rumours turn out to be fact. A smaller M that produces excellent image quality with the simplest handling has to be good. Whether or not the iso wheel is a disaster or not I've no way of knowing, but for the moment I feel more hope than despair. My Canon system will give me all the automated, image stabilised speed I need, and the Leica will remain the first tool of choice for 80 to 90% of my practice.

[LocalHero1953]

The prospective ISO wheel looks like an idea from the same retro designer who kept the M baseplate: " film Ms had a dial there so lets put the ISO dial there".

 

But I still wait to see if this same image, which has done the rounds for over a month without update, will have any relationship with reality. It didn't have a video button then either.

[ianman]

The prospective ISO wheel looks like an idea from the same retro designer who kept the M baseplate: " film Ms had a dial there so lets put the ISO dial there".

 

I suppose by that you mean it's a bad idea. But why ?

For a big obvious reason they can put it on the back, also I feel its a good idea to keep the right side uncluttered.

To be honest, although it would be a nice addition, I'm not that bothered about having a dedicated iso knob, as long as they revert to the M9 method of selecting it which is easy and fast.

 

On a purely subjective note I also much prefer the look of the film M, and M9 family with the notch on the left. I find it far more pleasing than the brick look Typ240.

[LocalHero1953]

I suppose by that you mean it's a bad idea. But why ?

For a big obvious reason they can put it on the back, also I feel its a good idea to keep the right side uncluttered.

To be honest, although it would be a nice addition, I'm not that bothered about having a dedicated iso knob, as long as they revert to the M9 method of selecting it which is easy and fast.

 

On a purely subjective note I also much prefer the look of the film M, and M9 family with the notch on the left. I find it far more pleasing than the brick look Typ240.

In principle, doing it just because there used to be a rewind knob there is a bad idea. The ISO dial ought to be in the right place.

 

But I don't know where the right place is ergonomically; I'd like it to fall naturally to a finger for quick adjustment with the camera to the eye - I'm not sure this one does. As others have noted, my left hand is occupied with focus and aperture.

 

For similar reasons of ergonomics/haptics with the camera at the eye, I would like the selected ISO to be visible in the VF, together with the shutter speed (as a number of us have asked for before). I can work out the aperture dial and focus simply from its position on an end-to-end twist, but the shutter dial is continuous (yes, I know there is one bigger detent, but I don't find it easy to detect), and I guess the ISO dial might be as well.

 

Yes, I would like a dedicated ISO dial: to my limited mind it is as important as aperture and shutter speed, so I want the same direct access without having to look at a screen.

 

In the end, though, whether my GAS directs its attention to this new camera (if it actually exists) will be determined almost entirely by image quality and sensor performance: if there is a big step up (significantly better than the SL), then I will want it, if not, I won't. One other factor that would affect my decision, because it would open up a new area of use, would be a truly silent shutter (not just a quieter one), so I could use the camera sitting in the front row of a musical recital or theatre performance without my neighbours noticing. At the moment, however, all the speculation is based on what an expert rumourmonger can wring from a couple of old photographs in a regulatory submission that may or may not have a relationship with a possible future camera. All very entertaining, but I'm happy to be patient.

 

None of the other new features mentioned in the rumours would make me want to change from the M240. Three buttons on the back? Meh.

[chris_tribble]

One other factor that would affect my decision, because it would open up a new area of use, would be a truly silent shutter (not just a quieter one), so I could use the camera sitting in the front row of a musical recital or theatre performance without my neighbours noticing.

Two thoughts / questions on this.

1. Is a fully electronic / silent shutter possible within the constraints of the M design?  I suppose if you have the equivalent of the implementation on the Canons I've used where silent mode is part of live view, then it might be...

2. Apart from the ethical issues, even if you have a fully silent shutter, as a performance photographer + audience member, I really resent (usually amateurs) getting their elbows up and camera's to their faces during performances.  The only sensitive options for performance work are: during rehearsal / sound check, back stage but out of line of audience line of sight, or from the lighting booth with very long lenses.  The last thing I want is M users joining the smart-phone idiots who feel that if they've not filmed a performance they weren't there.  Some of you may remember this:

[Paul J]

I've waited a while to see if I change my mind about it but that ISO dial looks terrible.

[lct]

[...] Is a fully electronic / silent shutter possible within the constraints of the M design?  I suppose if you have the equivalent of the implementation on the Canons I've used where silent mode is part of live view, then it might be... [...]

 

Smaller bodies than the M have this feature already. I use it most of the time personally. Would be a deal breaker if Leica was unable to do the same on a forthcoming M i must say.

[Peter H]

A dual purpose shutter-speed dial could provide an ISO control usable while the camera is at your eye.

 

It works for Fuji, as do many of the good design ideas that get proposed and discussed here and dismissed as "bells and whistles" if they didn't exist in the old days.

[Bill Livingston]

I seem to remember the ISO control on the shutter speed dial on one of my film careers years ago... you just pulled up the shutter speed dial and rotated it and dropped in back down at the right ISO... might have been my Nikon F2A - no just checked. It was my Pentax Spotmatic F. The F2A was above the shutter speed dial, on the photomic head of my Nikon.

 

As far as I am concerned, I agree with Peter... a dual purpose shutter speed dial would be neater... and the Nikon way of doing it meant you could do it at eye level. Shutter speed and ISO setting should be visible in the viewfinder.

 

As I said before, the M5 had that ugly ISO setting on the top plate. It was inboard, rather than at the edge, but it was equally badly designed and awkward.

 

I hope this M10 isn't going to be Leica's 'digital M5'... surely they would have learned by now...?

[MarkP]

It's too small with too few markings to be a normal ISO dial. So if it s an ISO dial it must activate a digital readout on the back screen.  However, from that photo we really don't know what it does.

 

 

I know it won't suit the purists but I'd really like an M camera that when in manual mode actually shows me the shutter speed in the viewfinder.

[Paul J]

Yeah, this new wheel looks so ugly. Maybe it will be better in the flesh.

 

I would be more open to a dual function wheel as suggested here, but personally I rarely touch the ISO, and if I do, I find the current button and wheel selection very well implemented. I really don't find it that different to the film bodies.

[pop]

Has anyone found out what the white patch on top of the body on the left hand side might be?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Paul J]

It's too small with too few markings to be a normal ISO dial. So if it s an ISO dial it must activate a digital readout on the back screen.  However, from that photo we really don't know what it does.

 

 

I know it won't suit the purists but I'd really like an M camera that when in manual mode actually shows me the shutter speed in the viewfinder.

 

Shutter speed in the viewfinder AND an exposure scale exposure showing where exposure is sitting plus or minus 2 or 3 stops would be something I would personally really welcome. I find the >O< particularly unhelpful in situations like fast changing light, or moving from different locations with different lighting where stopping for metering purposes should be redundant. Sure, you get by fine but it could be easier and I find that far more useful that wifi or an ISO wheel and far less intrusive on the design.