Typ 240 with Flash

[Luke_Miller]

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I tend to use flash regularly since I find the files from my digital M cameras to be particularly appealing at lower ISO settings.  One of the challenges in getting good flash exposure on the subject is if there is a bright background or light source in the area "seen" by the camera's center weighted metering.  Additionally if "Auto Slow Sync" is active the camera will attempt to balance the flash output to that of the bright background or light source resulting in severe underexposure or even the flash not firing at all.  I took a series of shots with my Typ 240 and SF-58 to demonstrate what I frequently see.  Fortunately I got "Fluffy" to serve as a subject.  The first shot is the scene as metered by the camera without flash. Now it was certainly possible to take an exposure without flash that would have Fluffy properly exposed, but then the background would be blown out resulting in an unattractive image.  All images are as shot with the exception of my default contrast, clarity, and vibrance settings.  I have not done a similar test using the Advanced Metering Mode, but will in the future.  My brief experience with it is that it seems to show less sensitivity to bright backgrounds, but is not a total solution.

 

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I then took a series of ceiling bounce flash exposures using the various modes (Aperture Priority, Auto ISO, and Manual) with the SF-58 set to TTL.  In all shots the subject was underexposed regardless of mode.  The following is the best exposed of the set.  

 

 

Then I changed the mode of the SF-58 to A (auto-thyrister) in which the flash controls the flash exposure based on light reflected back from the subject.

 

 

It was slightly hot for my taste, but could be easily dialed back in post. I think it strikes the best balance between the foreground subject and the bright background.

 

Very nice results can be achieved once one gets some experience using flash with the Leica M. TTL flash exposure works fine in most situations and Auto Slow Sync can produce some surprisingly good flash exposures in the right circumstances. But in some situations they fail badly.  Then "A" mode (auto-thyrister) is invaluable. I also find it useful in people pictures since it has no pre-flash to trigger the subject's blink reflex.  My disappointment with the smaller and lighter (than SF-58) SF-40 is that it lacks this mode.

 

 

[david strachan]

Good stuff Luke.  Always worth pushing the envelope even though Leica seem to have made a point about not using flash. It's really very hard to work flash and Leica in so many situations.

 

Back to you...I think the bear is hot, because it is white.  The A mode looks good for most of the room environs which are mid range brightness.  This has made the flash look overexposed for the white subject.

 

all best..

[Peter Wright]

I find TTL flash to be a wast of time for the most part.  I mainly use manual or sometimes Auto (thyristor).  TTL gets the exposure wrong nearly all the time resulting in increased post processing time to make everything once more consistent.  One up-side of this is that I can safely take a pass on the new and absurdly priced Leica flash – SF64.

[Peter H]

On the SF-58 with my M, I find TTL always overexposes by getting on for 1 stop (if it's within its capacity to do so)  and Auto nearly always underexposes by a similar amount, or perhaps a little less sometimes. This is consistent, in all the conditions I've experienced, all the settings I've tried, and whether I bounce or not.

 

I prefer the underexposed Auto version, but I'd prefer it to get it right.

[Luke_Miller]

I prefer the underexposed Auto version, but I'd prefer it to get it right.

 

When I see that I need to adjust the flash exposure in Auto mode I just lie to the flash about the aperture setting on the lens.

[Peter H]

When I see that I need to adjust the flash exposure in Auto mode I just lie to the flash about the aperture setting on the lens.

Yes, that's what I do too. It shouldn't really be necessary should it? But I suppose there are better things to worry about!

[Luke_Miller]

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Yes, that's what I do too. It shouldn't really be necessary should it? But I suppose there are better things to worry about!

Flash Auto (auto-thyrister) mode is the earliest implementation of flash exposure automation and predates any form of TTL flash exposure control by many years, so it is not surprising that it works imperfectly. But it is effective in the situations where center-weighted TTL flash metering falls short short.  The trick is knowing when to employ it.

[Ron Weissman]

My favorite flash for on-camera auto-thrystor  "A" mode is the Quantum Trio (just input ISO and aperture) and the Trio does the rest. I've used it with the SL, Fuji X series, but not yet the M, but did use the SL, Trio and M lenses with generally quite accurate exposure. The light quality from the Quantum series is quite different from traditional shoe-mounted flashes. Much more even light, fewer hotspots,  a 'bigger' flash meaning softer light, plus bare bulb options and many professional modifiers (soft box, umbrella, etc.). Very fast recycling, extremely consistent exposure. But heavier and more cumbersome (needs external battery pack)---for event shooting, the added hassle is worth it.

[Peter H]

Flash Auto (auto-thyrister) mode is the earliest implementation of flash exposure automation and predates any form of TTL flash exposure control by many years, so it is not surprising that it works imperfectly. But it is effective in the situations where center-weighted TTL flash metering falls short short. The trick is knowing when to employ it.

That's a bit of a cliffhanger ending there Luke...

[Luke_Miller]

That's a bit of a cliffhanger ending there Luke...

 

It was a bit flippant.  I find the Leica TTL flash exposure to produce a bit better results in scenes where the camera metering works well, but light levels are low.  Auto mode works best in scenes where the subject is back lighted or a light source is present in the meter coverage area.  The first image in my original post is a good example.  The camera "thinks" it is a good exposure and, regardless of any setting, will only allow the flash to provide a limited amount of fill. Auto mode ignores the background and is only sensitive to the amount of flash produced light reflected back by the closest object in the field of view of its sensor.

 

I see the choice as using TTL and (recognizing those situations where it is fooled) changing to Auto as appropriate, or using Auto all the time.  Using Auto requires one to manually enter the shooting aperture, so if you change it on the lens you must remember to change it on the flash.  The ISO setting (also needed by Auto mode) is communicated by the camera as long as a Leica flash is mounted.  Auto has the additional advantage of allowing the use of many third part flashes.  My Nikon flashes work very nicely on my Leica bodies.

[Peter H]

Thanks Luke.

 

I tend to use Auto simply because I feel a little more in control. In the old days it was all manual but I never did use a flash meter and I've spent more hours of my life experimenting with lights and flashes than is good for me,.

 

For the last six years or so I've largely avoided flash in favour of trying to be more natural, but I think I'm getting drawn back in.  I'm trying to learn how the TTL behaves on the SF58 with my M, but it doesn't seem reliable although I expect that's more to do with me being impatient.

 

I also prefer off-camera flash and I really don't know what to expect from TTL there. 

[Luke_Miller]

For the last six years or so I've largely avoided flash in favour of trying to be more natural, but I think I'm getting drawn back in. 

I went through the same process.  With my Nikons I can shoot at astronomical ISOs and so can avoid the use of flash and very wide apertures.  But I've come to feel that bad light tends to produce poor images. I read a statement by photographer Neil van Niekerk that "available light is any light you can bring with you." So I still consider myself an available light shooter, but I'm using flash more and more.

 

Off camera TTL works OK (at least in the Nikon world) but I much prefer manual flash. It's all better than trying to calculate aperture from the flash's (or flash bulb's) guide number.

[Luke_Miller]

My favorite flash for on-camera auto-thrystor  "A" mode is the Quantum Trio (just input ISO and aperture) and the Trio does the rest. I've used it with the SL, Fuji X series, but not yet the M, but did use the SL, Trio and M lenses with generally quite accurate exposure. The light quality from the Quantum series is quite different from traditional shoe-mounted flashes. Much more even light, fewer hotspots,  a 'bigger' flash meaning softer light, plus bare bulb options and many professional modifiers (soft box, umbrella, etc.). Very fast recycling, extremely consistent exposure. But heavier and more cumbersome (needs external battery pack)---for event shooting, the added hassle is worth it.

I've not used the Quantum, but do have (the even heavier) Cheetah Light (AKA Godox) CL-360 which has the same support for light modifiers, in fact  think it is compatible with those for Quantum.  I love the quality of light and its 330 watt-seconds of flash power.  Great for fill in direct sun and for ceiling bounce in very high ceiling rooms.  Unfortunately my CL-360 is manual control only.

[tpf1952]

In the last two years I've transitioned to Leica via Canon then Sony. I regularly cover events with the M-240 and occasionally the SL. After much trial and error I find that manual flash is the only way I can get predicable results. For me, the Leica branded SF-40 and SF-64 are simply not reliable in either Auto or TTL modes. To add to the mix, the 64 has a tendency to report that freshly charged NiMH batteries are exhausted. When I place those same batteries in an old Nikon SB-24, everything works. I wish it were otherwise.

 

Tom

[FlashGordonPhotography]

 To add to the mix, the 64 has a tendency to report that freshly charged NiMH batteries are exhausted. When I place those same batteries in an old Nikon SB-24, everything works. I wish it were otherwise.

 

Tom

 

 

I've never had that using Envelop Pros. Apart from some auto ISO and exposure preview bugs, I find the SF64 very good on the SL. I use TTL normally and auto for backlit subjects and it works as expected.

 

The M is more problematic because of it's weird metering off the shutter curtain. Direct flash with the SF40 and diffuser attached gives reasonable results. Certainly better than bounce flash.

 

Gordon

[tpf1952]

Gordon,

 

You mean the Panasonic batteries? I'll give them a try. Been using Powerex/Maha NIMH batteries for about 10 years without problem. Well, maybe not. I really would like to find something that makes the 64 work for me.

 

Many thanks,

 

Tom

[steveBK]

Not normally a flash guy (have owned the same $20 flash for 12 years and probably used it twice in the last 5 years).

 

However I wanted to give it a shot recently, so picked up the SF-40 to use on the M240 & Q.

 

On holiday in Kyoto, picked it up in the morning @ Kyoto Leica Store (it's lovely) and then my wife did a Kimono rental..

 

M 240 + 50 Summilux ASPH + SF-40

I used the diffuser and TTL mode, mostly in -2 setting to try and just lightly fill with soft light.

Light was fading fast from ~2pm to sunset @ 4:30pm, and it was a bit overcast.

I did not read the manual and it didn't always behave as expected.. but I got some photos I am happy with..

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[steveBK]

And one more

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[steveBK]

Note these have been fully post-processed, so color balance was tweaked (very minimally) and there was some adjustment brush use (minimal).

 

In the end I think the best combo was - Flash on TTL, -1 to -2 adjustment.

Camera on ISO 200 fixed, then Apertures f1.4-2.0 and Shutter speed 1/45-1/180 manually as lighting dictated.

This ended up allowing me to mix natural light & flash better than the +/- settings on the flash alone.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Gordon,

 

You mean the Panasonic batteries? I'll give them a try. Been using Powerex/Maha NIMH batteries for about 10 years without problem. Well, maybe not. I really would like to find something that makes the 64 work for me.

 

Many thanks,

 

Tom

 

Yep, That's them. Also made by Sanyo. 2450MaH.  MaHa also make batteries with the same technology. They're the ones that can be stored long term without losing charge. 80% after a year of storage. I went from Powerex to Eneloops a few years ago and never looked back.

 

I still use my MaHa 8 cell charger with them.

 

Gordon