Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[leica1215]

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Start up is still 6-7 seconds. Apparently they intend to halve that but not as yet. Blackout seems a bit better than when I bought mine but it's still there. More than likely it'll always be there with the 1/3 second sensor readout speeds.

 

A sports camera it aint. But I'd much rather a slow start up time than mandatory LENR or crippled exposure times.

 

The camera has improved massively since I bought it. It is my favourite camera so far, despite it's flaws. I know the reviewers harp on about the X1D, in early firmware, but no one I've heard of who bought one wants to give it back if they shoot with it for a month or two.

 

Gordon

so will say overall it produced better IQ than SL? or it is better because of the larger sensor? 

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[helged]

 Ditto - it's the buying into a complete new system with no cross compatibility that puts me off.

 

At least with the SL I can use almost any lens and get good results. 

 

More pixels and DR would be nice, but flexibility and usability without irritations counts for more .....

 

 

...and the SL will see an update, hardware and software wise, likely not this year, but not too long thereafter. Before any SL-announcement, we can expect Leica to present the S008. For me (having some S-lenses already), S008 will be the system to compare other medium format offerings against. Not the SL.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

so will say overall it produced better IQ than SL? or it is better because of the larger sensor? 

 

That's a loaded question.

 

If you need the extra resolution or DR of the X1D then the HB is the way to go. It also has leaf shutter lenses. Useful for flash sync. The real bugbear for me is that the SL forces LENR for long exposures. It makes the camera unusable to me as a landscape camera. I'd be happy to stitch bigger files but can't with the SL. Same with the S. And M. And TL/CL......

 

However the SL excels at flexibility, has zoom lenses that are brilliant and is much faster in operation. And there's no equivalent of the SL 50 for the X1D. I love my SL50. Blur is prettier on the SL regardless of the HB lens I choose.

 

I tend to use my camera in their strong areas. So the X1D is for travel and landscapes. The SL is my workhorse. Anything where print size is under 24". Where I need speed and versatility or the DOF of that 50.

 

IQ is different (the X1D is arguably better) but I don't choose between them because of IQ. They're both incredible and incredibly capable. It's usability and optics that make me choose one or the other. Same reason I'd choose neither for underwater or wildlife shooting.

 

Gordon

[tom0511]

Gordon,

if you say IQ is not the point to choose one over the other, for which reasons would you use the x1d for landscapes? I am just curios.

I use the S and SL (and some other cameras) and struggle because the S produces somewhat better files but the SL with the 24-90 is so much faster to use and easier to carry that I now use the SL more often.

Tom

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Gordon,

if you say IQ is not the point to choose one over the other, for which reasons would you use the x1d for landscapes? I am just curios.

I use the S and SL (and some other cameras) and struggle because the S produces somewhat better files but the SL with the 24-90 is so much faster to use and easier to carry that I now use the SL more often.

Tom

 

For me the main thing is long exposures and LENR. I use long exposures a LOT. 16 stops of ND filters isn't unusual on my lens when shooting landscapes. I just can't deal with Leica's short exposure times on the S and mandatory LENR on the S and SL.

 

Yes the X1D has more resolution and dynamic range. However at some point all cameras run out of both. I can stitch and blend exposures if I need to, which is probably 3% of the time for blending on the SL and 1% on the X1D. For resolution I tend to like either square or full panoramic formats and i don't like wasting pixels, so I stitch a lot. My slider is marked with the nodal points of my lenses. So the resolution difference becomes 3 shots on the X1D or 5 shots on the SL. I often use the Canon T/S lenses as well for stitching. So resolution is neither here or there for me except I often have to wait MINUTES between shots on the SL. Useless. I can make up for the resolution difference but not the LENR. I have missed the light a couple of times waiting for the stupid LENR to do its thing. So I won't take the SL on a landscape trip.

 

Also on the X1D you can specify exactly how long you want the self timer to be. The menus are sublime. However the SL lenses are so versatile and brilliant that they are something I miss on all my other cameras. The zooms are epic plus the utility of using TS lenses, fisheyes, etc.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'd love an SL with more DR and resolution. I have a few shots on my X1D that I would have not got except for the huge recoverability of the X1D files. It's just that it's 1% of my photography I need that and I don't tend to fret about missed opportunities when there's so many options with any camera if you learn it properly. It's a great sensor in the SL versus the best on the market. Limited lenses versus exceptional flexibility. As far as dilemmas go, it's a good one to have.

 

I am fortunate that I don't have to choose. I can afford to keep both. I don't think I could choose between them.

 

Gordon

[gbealnz]

Gordon, you have my sympathies. I shoot the odd bit of long exposure astro, shots of two to three, to five minutes are the norm. My Fuji cameras handle this with aplomb.

The Leica T? Forget it, 30 secs is as long as it goes/went.

The SL? Haven't tried it, but if you are saying I cannot turn off the LENR then it's a cooked goose as well. And so easily fixed with a firmware "adjustment".

I'm sure there will be a valid reason, just the same as always. How the others can easily accomplish this though baffles me.

Gary

[leica1215]

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I have got feeling that medium format like X1D amazed us by the big sensor, and excellant files which it can capture, but do not know the lens level achieved by HB? 

 

will you say HB produce quality of their lens or X1D 's lens are equal or even better than SL50, 50 APO....etc....?

[leica1215]

as I remember when I tried X1D few month ago, the viewfinder is not magnified isnt' it? I felt a bit hard to do manual focus since everything inside view finder are so small compare to SL, it is the same when I tried A9, any particular reason for this? why not give a bit magnifying power to the viewfinder?

[frame-it]

maybe you should rent a Hasselblad H6d with a few lenses and try them out.

 

but do not know the lens level achieved by HB? 

 

will you say HB produce quality of their lens or X1D 's lens are equal or even better than SL50, 50 APO....etc....?

Edited January 12, 2018 by frame-it

[meerec]

as I remember when I tried X1D few month ago, the viewfinder is not magnified isnt' it? I felt a bit hard to do manual focus since everything inside view finder are so small compare to SL, it is the same when I tried A9, any particular reason for this? why not give a bit magnifying power to the viewfinder?

It does magnify.

[meerec]

I have got feeling that medium format like X1D amazed us by the big sensor, and excellant files which it can capture, but do not know the lens level achieved by HB? 

 

will you say HB produce quality of their lens or X1D 's lens are equal or even better than SL50, 50 APO....etc....?

They are excellent.

[Guest VVJ]

They are excellent.

 

+1.  I had (and still have) 7 HC lenses.  They are excellent.  I am watching the X1D with great interest.  

[Guest VVJ]

So the X1D is for travel and landscapes. 

 

Hi Gordon,

 

If you don't mind me asking so what do you do with the CL and TL2?  Do they serve any purpose outside of travel?

 

Thanks, Joris.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Hi Gordon,

 

If you don't mind me asking so what do you do with the CL and TL2?  Do they serve any purpose outside of travel?

 

Thanks, Joris.

 

I bought a T/18-55 plus the 11-23 on a run out special. It was the 11-23 that initially got my attention. It's a stellar lens. Fast forward and I have the T, TL2 and CL. The main reason is that for the occasional use I have for a wide zoom. The CL/11-23 means I won't need to buy the wide SL zoom, which I know would get limited use. I also needed flash and a viewfinder at the same time.

 

Turns out I like the CL more than I thought I would. It has some stupid and unnecessary flaws (same old LENR and short exposures) and I still think it needs IS lenses. But it's small light and fun. Using the Q battery was a mistake. It's currently my daily carry and I took it on my last holiday with the kids where photography was not the main focus. For now my M10 is resting and Fujis are collecting dust. They'll have to go I think. 3rd time I've come and gone from Fuji. The range is smaller but the CL lenses are just epic.

 

For serious travel photography though, it'll be a PenF and X1D unless Leica sort out the LENR stuff. Plus I have an 800 equiv for the Pen.

 

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Gordon, you have my sympathies. I shoot the odd bit of long exposure astro, shots of two to three, to five minutes are the norm. My Fuji cameras handle this with aplomb.

The Leica T? Forget it, 30 secs is as long as it goes/went.

The SL? Haven't tried it, but if you are saying I cannot turn off the LENR then it's a cooked goose as well. And so easily fixed with a firmware "adjustment".

I'm sure there will be a valid reason, just the same as always. How the others can easily accomplish this though baffles me.

Gary

 

I wouldn't feel sorry for me. I have plenty of cameras to choose from. 1st world problem.

 

All cameras have limitations and flaws. It's just whether those flaws fall outside a particular persons usage type.

 

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I have got feeling that medium format like X1D amazed us by the big sensor, and excellant files which it can capture, but do not know the lens level achieved by HB? 

 

will you say HB produce quality of their lens or X1D 's lens are equal or even better than SL50, 50 APO....etc....?

 

Nope.....

 

I like both Leica and the HB lenses.

 

HB lenses are fabulous. Often spectacular. But I think the S lenses are still the bench mark. And the SL50 is my favourite 50 and one of my favourite lenses of all time.

 

But it's not resolution or edge sharpness. They all do brilliantly there, often from wide open. It's just that they draw differently. For landscapes, where I'm usually stopped down I don't see either as "better" but they do look different. Wide open I prefer the S lenses every time. Except for maybe the HC24mm which I really like and the 150mm which has no direct equivalent. The XC range (X1D natives) tend to not have much of a signature, while the S lenses most certainly have a "look" about them.

 

I need to point out that another person could look at the same files and honestly say they prefer the Hasselblad lenses. It's not a technical choice (except the S100 vs the HC100. The S wins on every level). It's an aesthetic one.

 

Gordon

[leica1215]

this topic made me consider getting the X1D, after long reading and some web surfing, found that medium format sensor pack in such a small package like X1D, it does getting warm or hot after while, and viewfinder black out, with slow start up time, slow AF, my conclusion is overall the technologies not are up this stages yet, medium format sensor need a bit more space to dissipate the heat, and electronically need some improvement versus the SL is much more polished products. unless one need compactness of the X1D as well as the resolution. so to bear with all other short coming.  

[FlashGordonPhotography]

this topic made me consider getting the X1D, after long reading and some web surfing, found that medium format sensor pack in such a small package like X1D, it does getting warm or hot after while, and viewfinder black out, with slow start up time, slow AF, my conclusion is overall the technologies not are up this stages yet, medium format sensor need a bit more space to dissipate the heat, and electronically need some improvement versus the SL is much more polished products. unless one need compactness of the X1D as well as the resolution. so to bear with all other short coming.  

 

That depends on your shooting envelope. No way a camera like an X1D is going to be an action or sports shooter. When I'm standing next to my X1D on a tripod in the middle of a 3 minute exposure it certainly is up to the task. Then again the GFX or S also isn't a sports system. Highly unlikely that the X1D would be your only camera unless you shoot a narrow envelope.

 

The X1D is supposed to be warm. The whole body is a heat sync. People tromp on about this but it's normal behaviour.

 

AF is actually very good by medium format standards. If you want to shoot BIF look elsewhere. The Fuji is marginally faster but no by a massive amount.

 

Startup is slow. But there's supposed to be a firmware update coming to halve it. Still not DSLR speeds but mostly not a problem, if it arrives.

 

VF blackout isn't that bad compared to an optical mirror with a miniMF sensor. But yes it's more than a smaller sensor has. The SL shines here.

 

The SL took over a year to sort out some of the firmware stupidity and glitches and STILL doesn't have it all sorted. The X1D also get regular updates and improves by leaps and bounds. But certainly you're in a new system. SOme patience is required.

 

Gordon

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[Jeff S]

The X1D is supposed to be warm. The whole body is a heat sync. People tromp on about this but it's normal behaviour.

 

 

I consider it a cold weather shooting feature.

 

I haven’t held the X1D since the public demo with a not-ready-for-prime-time prototype. I’m encouraged by all the improvements, but have yet to revisit it in person. I’ll be especially interested in my second impression on the EVF and the shutter sound(s)....and of course downloading and editing some files.

 

I expect that sometime this year I’ll commit to the X1D or SL system... with an outside chance on the S. Frankly, I didn’t think the Hasselblad would get back in the running before version two; kudos to them.

 

Jeff

[dfarkas]

Start up is still 6-7 seconds. Apparently they intend to halve that but not as yet. Blackout seems a bit better than when I bought mine but it's still there. More than likely it'll always be there with the 1/3 second sensor readout speeds.

 

A sports camera it aint. But I'd much rather a slow start up time than mandatory LENR or crippled exposure times.

 

The camera has improved massively since I bought it. It is my favourite camera so far, despite it's flaws. I know the reviewers harp on about the X1D, in early firmware, but no one I've heard of who bought one wants to give it back if they shoot with it for a month or two.

 

Gordon

 

FWIW, we've taken three X1Ds in trade in the last few months. Either for SL or S.

 

I think the concept of the X1D is a good one. But it does feel rushed to market. Leica waited patiently to jump into mirrorless with the SL until all the technology was available to do it correctly. The main reason for the SL's 11 fps frame rate is the fast readout of the sensor, not sports shooting. The 4.4 MP EVF is still unmatched two years later. Contrast detect AF on the SL zooms is as fast (or faster) than phase detect AF on DSLRs, and completely silent. These achievements are not accidental. Leica wanted to build a mirrorless camera that could viably compete with OVF DSLRs.

 

As evidence that this was the camera Leica intended to build, check out this Q&A session I attended with Stefan Daniel from 2010:

 

Q&A with Stefan Daniel from 2010 LHSA Meeting in Wetzlar: Mirrorless cameras, future directions and the Leica R System

 

No one in the room, including me, realized it at the time of course. I merely thought he was referring to the next generation M camera with live view, which ended up being the M240. And that was certainly part of the discussion, but if you read carefully, you'll see he references a DSLR-like mirrorless for professionals.

 

I feel like the X1D was a last ditch Hail Mary that needed to be pushed out if Hasselblad were to survive - off-the-shelf sensor, low res EVF, poor refresh rate. And, by my estimation, it worked. The X1D got people talking about Hassy again, and perhaps more importantly, made them more attractive to potential buyers (of the company, not the camera). This could have played a big role leading to the the sale of the company to DJI, which was the best possible outcome for them moving forward - to have access to talent and capital. So, good for them.

Edited January 15, 2018 by dfarkas