Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[Jeff S]

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Sorry but your loosing your marbles..............I had a M from 2012 until 2015 when I traded in all that stuff for a S............the only reason I have M lenses now is that I have a SL and a M10

 

Marbles intact, thanks.

 

You traded your M240 in mid-2015, complaining about blurry pics with your wife....  http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/246666-trading-in-all-my-leica-m-gear-for-a-new-leica-s/?p=2847723.   And you admitted in another thread that you never checked LV for RF/lens calibration.

 

Then you were back on the forum in April, 2016 still asking about diopters (forgetting you already asked about them a year earlier) regarding your M6... http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/258125-leica-dioptre/?p=3018650

 

Jeff

[jaapv]

Coming back to the topic - I just had a long chat with a Calumet salesman and he told me that they had a number of Fuji GFX cameras in and they were quite impressed. Good handling and ergonomics, excellent IQ and quite reasonable price, he said. He also said "it is not as ugly as on the photos"

 

OTOH he was not as positive about the X1D. His main objections were lack of reliability ("it is not whether it will break down, but when it will") and an exceedingly long startup. Nor was he happy about the EVF.. FWIIW. I have not even seen either camera.

 

They don't do Leica.

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

Coming back to the topic - I just had a long chat with a Calumet salesman and he told me that they had a number of Fuji GFX cameras in and they were quite impressed. Good handling and ergonomics, excellent IQ and quite reasonable price, he said. He also said "it is not as ugly as on the photos"

 

OTOH he was not as positive about the X1D. His main objections were lack of reliability ("it is not whether it will break down, but when it will") and an exceedingly long startup. Nor was he happy about the EVF.. FWIIW. I have not even seen either camera.

 

They don't do Leica.

Jaapv.......i'm with you brother, if it ain't got Leica on it, I aint getting it. SL and S007 are the perfect combo.........for now

I didn t get a M10 by the way, its too ugly for my liking

[ramarren]

Coming back to the topic - I just had a long chat with a Calumet salesman and he told me that they had a number of Fuji GFX cameras in and they were quite impressed. Good handling and ergonomics, excellent IQ and quite reasonable price, he said. He also said "it is not as ugly as on the photos"

 

OTOH he was not as positive about the X1D. His main objections were lack of reliability ("it is not whether it will break down, but when it will") and an exceedingly long startup. Nor was he happy about the EVF.. FWIIW. I have not even seen either camera.

 

They don't do Leica.

That was "coming back to the topic"? Amazing. What does it have to do with the question of whether an X1D or SL?

 

Getting advice from a camera salesman who has "a number of Fuji GFX cameras in" and likely no X1Ds is, shall we say, likely not to reflect well on the X1D. I finally saw a GFX in the flesh the other day. It's exactly what I expected—I remain totally uninterested. When the X1D's 22mm lens is available, I will likely buy one and add the 120mm Macro as well. It's a good complement to my Leica SL and M-D; in fact, I expect I'd use the X1D and 22mm lens much more than I will use the SL and SL90-280. If the 22mm lens was available now, I would likely have gone for that first.

Edited March 20, 2017 by ramarren

[Belle123]

Coming back to the topic - I just had a long chat with a Calumet salesman and he told me that they had a number of Fuji GFX cameras in and they were quite impressed. Good handling and ergonomics, excellent IQ and quite reasonable price, he said. He also said "it is not as ugly as on the photos"

 

OTOH he was not as positive about the X1D. His main objections were lack of reliability ("it is not whether it will break down, but when it will") and an exceedingly long startup. Nor was he happy about the EVF.. FWIIW. I have not even seen either camera.

 

They don't do Leica.

And just when might they anticipate that the X1d breaks down when none have yet, to my knowledge. Does the salesman have a crystal ball? I would be equally concerned about any other camera. One thing I have discovered on mine is it needs ultra fast SD cards, at least 80. Any less, the camera hiccups and needs to be reset. I noted when first viewed a demo, the salesman was complaining it was acting up. Was due to too slow a card.

Am sure the GFX camera is excellent. And am sure they want to sell them now rather than have a customer order X1d and might have to wait several months or longer.

[jaapv]

And just when might they anticipate that the X1d breaks down when none have yet, to my knowledge. Does the salesman have a crystal ball? I would be equally concerned about any other camera. One thing I have discovered on mine is it needs ultra fast SD cards, at least 80. Any less, the camera hiccups and needs to be reset. I noted when first viewed a demo, the salesman was complaining it was acting up. Was due to too slow a card.

Am sure the GFX camera is excellent. And am sure they want to sell them now rather than have a customer order X1d and might have to wait several months or longer.

Don't shoot the messenger... He claimed a number had broken down. I have no horse in this race. None of these cameras have my interest

[IkarusJohn]

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Don't shoot the messenger... He claimed a number had broken down. I have no horse in this race. None of these cameras have my interest

Sure, but you repeat a story which does not stand up to much critical thinking.

[jaapv]

Well, given that this is a store  mainly for professionals (at least in our part of the world) that sells quite a few medium format cameras including the Hasselblad, it should be of interest.

 

 

https://www.calumetphoto.nl/category/cameras-objectieven/cameras/digitale-cameras/digitale-middenformaatcameras

[jaapv]

That was "coming back to the topic"? Amazing. What does it have to do with the question of whether an X1D or SL?

 

Getting advice from a camera salesman who has "a number of Fuji GFX cameras in" and likely no X1Ds is, shall we say, likely not to reflect well on the X1D. I finally saw a GFX in the flesh the other day. It's exactly what I expected—I remain totally uninterested. When the X1D's 22mm lens is available, I will likely buy one and add the 120mm Macro as well. It's a good complement to my Leica SL and M-D; in fact, I expect I'd use the X1D and 22mm lens much more than I will use the SL and SL90-280. If the 22mm lens was available now, I would likely have gone for that first.

I think he has five or six  X1Ds in stock... Plus the ones they rent.

[Belle123]

Well, given that this is a store  mainly for professionals (at least in our part of the world) that sells quite a few medium format cameras including the Hasselblad, it should be of interest.

 

 

https://www.calumetphoto.nl/category/cameras-objectieven/cameras/digitale-cameras/digitale-middenformaatcameras

Out of curiosity, I looked at the English version of the store website. X1ds and GFX is still pre order. Maybe you are confused. Very few people have gotten their hands on either. I also am on the Hasselblad website and haven't seen reports of break down. Haven't done an extensive search of posts, but have seen no mention of it. And in the month I have had one, has performed with no problems with the right SD card. I can see if some have not a faster card, they might think is broken. Also, I have no doubt in some use there are firmware bugs to repair.

[IkarusJohn]

Out of curiosity, I looked at the English version of the store website. X1ds and GFX is still pre order. Maybe you are confused. Very few people have gotten their hands on either. I also am on the Hasselblad website and haven't seen reports of break down. Haven't done an extensive search of posts, but have seen no mention of it. And in the month I have had one, has performed with no problems with the right SD card. I can see if some have not a faster card, they might think is broken. Also, I have no doubt in some use there are firmware bugs to repair.

 

 

I haven't seen anything either - it looks remarkably like a new M forum, but without the same level of whinging - importing images, dust on the sensor, flash recommendations, firmware requests, adapter recommendations etc

[IkarusJohn]

... OTOH he was not as positive about the X1D. His main objections were lack of reliability ("it is not whether it will break down, but when it will") and an exceedingly long startup. Nor was he happy about the EVF... 

 

Subtext, nor was he very happy with the margins on the camera, as Hasselblad has (through its distribution network) been very tough on pricing from what I hear.

 

It's one thing to recommend one camera over another, and I like dealers who are honest about their products.  It just seems that honesty might be missing from some of that statement.  Nothing I have heard suggests that the X1D will inevitably breakdown ...

Edited March 20, 2017 by IkarusJohn

[phovsho]

I was at a dealers on Saturday. They had a Fuji GFX on demo. I got to play with it for a few moments - but wasn't able to examine the images it produces. Impressions:

 

1. Fast AF - I was using it in a poorly lite part of the shop and it handled things really well

2. EVF a bit disappointing compared to the SL. This was really noticeably but maybe because lighting wasn't ideal - but nor was it extremely poor lighting.

3. Busy Interface - nothing surprising. A typical Fuji experience compared to Leica. Some prefer lots of buttons. Others not.

4. For the bulk relatively light I thought. I don't know how much it weighted but it felt like I could comfortably carry it over my shoulder all day.

5. Lacked the solidity of the SL. The SL feels like a brick in the hand - heavy yes, but also a sense of unmatched build quality. That's how it felt to me anyways.

 

It didn't attract me mainly because of the EVF and the form factor. It actually has me wondering just how much bigger and heavier the S Leica is over the SL and whether I should at some point look at that system (never seen or touched one). Lol.

 

The manager was saying he felt the GFX was a winner. He felt it would be a more mature offering than the X1D which they are expecting to have in stock shortly. He felt the GFX would be more "reliable" than the Hasselblad - I didn't take that to mean it would "breakdown" but rather be a bit more glitchy.

 

I guess all the caveats about dealer incentives above could apply here also, I'm just relaying what I heard and experienced.

[ramarren]

Well, given that this is a store  mainly for professionals (at least in our part of the world) that sells quite a few medium format cameras including the Hasselblad, it should be of interest.

https://www.calumetphoto.nl/category/cameras-objectieven/cameras/digitale-cameras/digitale-middenformaatcameras

 

Calumet was the same in our part of the world. Unfortunately, they weren't very successful and went out of business here. 

[Jeff S]

Kevin Raber (LuLa) took an X1D and 2 lenses to Antarctica for field testing before his review.  He complimented the X1D's great design, build and user friendly interface, and he even liked the EVF, calling it bright and high res (something other reviewers haven't been so enthusiastic about).  He mostly didn't like the shutter sound and the shutter lag, or the AF point selection process.

 

He did, however, experience some problems, but chalked them up to (hopefully) early bugs that might be fixed in FW.  These included AF that would refuse to lock on occasion, short battery life (even in warmer weather when he returned home), half-drained battery when camera left overnight, camera hot to touch (apparently with a warning in the manual for use in hot weather, as the small body acts as a heat sink), and occasions where multiple frames were completely overexposed (blown out when shooting aperture priority and AF)....otherwise the camera had a tendency to underexpose.  He also experienced some 'strange banding' on high ISO images (he only used LR, not liking Phocus).

 

That was quite a while ago, using FW 1.14.  I don't know what the latest FW is or whether any of these issues remain or were unique to his experience.  I haven't read about any breakdowns or major concerns; mostly early bugs and the typical user complaints about this or that (see LUF).

 

I hope the X1D turns out to be a great product.  The size and form factor is very appealing, more than the GFX for me, but both systems need time to mature and prove themselves.  The SL has done superbly in that regard....a lot better than the S reliability-wise, it seems.

 

Jeff

Edited March 20, 2017 by Jeff S

[jaapv]

Subtext, nor was he very happy with the margins on the camera, as Hasselblad has (through its distribution network) been very tough on pricing from what I hear.

 

It's one thing to recommend one camera over another, and I like dealers who are honest about their products.  It just seems that honesty might be missing from some of that statement.  Nothing I have heard suggests that the X1D will inevitably breakdown ...

Attempts at character assassination are the hallmark of a lost argument. He was not selling anything and certainly nothing I won't buy in a hundred years. He is a friendly patient and we always natter about a common interest. In fact, today he was in for a root canal. We chatted about cameras for half an hour; selling and margins didn't enter into it. Don't float silly assumptions - they're bound to sink.

[IkarusJohn]

... character assassination ... lost argument ... Don't float silly assumptions - they're bound to sink.

 

  Starting to look like an ad hominem post, there, Jaap. 

 

Anyway, for those who are interested in this camera, as I said above, what I hear is that the margins are too tight on the X1D for any dealer to offer discounts, whereas the margins on the Fuji are better.  Quite why Jaap's patient would go about bagging a product he represents is anyone's guess; particularly when the comment seems completely unwarranted.  I'm sure Hasselblad wouldn't be too happy to hear that Calumet in Belgium (it is Belgium, right? - oh, sorry, The Netherlands) is being reported on an international forum as saying that their prized new camera will inevitably breakdown.

 

If it were me, I wouldn't repeat that comment (yep, shoot the messenger), and if I was Hasselblad, I'd be sending a please explain to Calumet. 

Edited March 21, 2017 by IkarusJohn

[jaapv]

Quite possibly. I'm sure Calumet will have the case histories to back it up. If not - their problem, not mine.

The remark on the margins does seem to be in the same league, though.

[caissa]

I feel some envy, because Hasselblad understood that they have to bring more lenses and ASAP.

Leica has not understood this, yet, for the SL. Good that Sigma is there to jump in.

 

But apart from that I am glad that I did not jump onto the X1D train. It keeps repeating that more is promised than really delivered. And I would not love the slowness of the camera - though some use this for an easing of tension (ZEN).  

The quality difference is simply too small for me. I guess in 3 years most camera systems will be on the far side regarding quality. And the Leica SL lenses will be prepared for that.

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[IkarusJohn]

Not sure I understand your post, Jaap.

 

This is a new camera, and many markets have had no supplies as yet.  There has been a reasonably full discussion of the camera on the Hasselblad forum (as mentioned above) with no hint of "it is not whether it will break down, but when it will".  I don't really think there is any question that his statement is unsupported - it would be well known and well discussed.  So, why make the statement.

 

You know your patient, so you are in the best position to judge, but I have had many dealers recommend one product over another on many occasions for the simple reason that the margins are better.  Call me suspicious, if you like; but don't call me silly.  I'm far too old and had far too much experience of life, and people disappointing me, for that to stick.

 

What I will say, also from personal experience, is that repeating unsubstantiated rumours (at best - in this case, it looks scurrilous) can be massively damaging for products like this.  I would never have repeated that story as it is obviously well short of accurate and isn't that informative.

Edited March 21, 2017 by IkarusJohn