Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[honcho]

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I had a good look at those images too when I received the DPReview email. I'm not so sure about 'nice samples', they are random snaps taken on a pre production camera with enough firmware to create some sort of image. That said, the most interesting of the bunch for me are the window images which demonstrate the potential DR quite well, but that isn't really necessary. Both Phase One and Hasselblad can point towards much better examples of what this tried and tested sensor can do in it's 16-bit flavour. We'll have to wait on for detailed reviews by real photographers, I hope they come soon.

[Jeff S]

Like ramarren above, I attended one of the X1D demo sessions today.  We also had two cameras to handle, one with the 45 lens and one with the 90.  As pre-production units, we also could not take pics.  Photokina release of the 30mm was confirmed, but no extended road map was given, except possibly another lens in a few months after Photokina.  When I pressed whether this might be wider, longer or a zoom, the rep only said that he hoped it would be wider since this seemed to be consistent with user desires (he didn't say how that was determined).  He reiterated that he had no idea on actual plans.

 

There were other limitations on these test units....battery consumption was extremely limited even for short demo purposes, EVF was not up to final standard according to the rep (and one didn't function at all despite active LV), only single AF focus point was active, etc.  August release is almost here....I'd say they've got some quick work to do.

 

As I wrote earlier, I was mainly interested in the EVF, especially as compared to the SL, since the latter is the only (barely) tolerable EVF I've experienced.  I'm just not a lover of EVFs in general, finding the tv-like screen experience unnerving.  And most all EVFs I've tried have a hard time rendering extreme contrasts.  But I know they have significant benefits in other ways and that improvements are continuing.  That said, I'll reserve judgment on this one.  I couldn't take the camera outdoors and, as the rep said, we shouldn't judge what we saw today as the production standard.  My early reaction is not as positive as my first time with the SL, albeit that was a production ready camera.

 

I asked one of the reps about the degree of weather sealing for the camera/lens, i.e., can one be expected to use it without problem in more than light rain, snow, cold, etc?.  I cited Leica S marketing, as well as positive user experience (e.g., David Farkas' Iceland review), as comparison.  The rep had no immediate response, but asked for my contact info so she could do some research and get back to me with a more official reply.  I'll report here if any.

 

The same rep privately volunteered that there were more pre-orders for this camera than she had experienced with any prior Hasselblad release.  I'm not sure if this was mere hype to get me to spread positive vibes, or reality.  I can see, however, that this could be a popular system, provided of course that they deliver on expectations.

 

Jeff

 

 

 

 

[Gsmith08]

First, let me say I am former Nikon D810, non-professional landscape photographer that 6 months ago switched to the Leica SL and zoom lenses.  Today I went to the X1D road show demo in Rockville, MD and spent several hours with two prototypes, one with the 45mm and the other 90mm lens.  There were two Hasselblad reps who were not the anticipated sales-types but very knowledgeable and quick to point out limitations like “sorry, the multi-exposure mode doesn’t work yet but will at release” or “there is no auto WB nor plans to add that feature”.  Stating, “we hired 25 engineers this past few weeks due to an overwhelming response to the X1D” thus was reassured Hasselblad is planning to support the camera in a big way.

 

I expected a big crowd from the DC area but in nearly 3 hours maybe 6 or 7 people showed up but that was ok as I had one of the two cameras most of the time and took quite a few images inside and outside through the store windows.  Initial impressions of what the reps repeatedly pointed out as a prototype camera with much being “fixed and improved” prior to release:

• First impression was X1D felt heavy for the small size but everything looked to be metal and solid and was very well balanced especially with the 90mm and felt steady and secure; a very well designed grip and button locations.
• The X1D LCD was excellent with the controls and submenus all touch sensitive, very responsive and I believe better than anything I have seen from Sony, Nikon, or even Olympus.
• I had expected the EVF to be less than stellar now that I am used to the SL 4K EVF but honestly it was still disappointing.  However, after a few hours of use the EVF seemed just fine for what I would use it for and that is framing and focus.  I visualize images with my eyes and not through a window.
• Manual focus is on par with and maybe better than the SL which I judge as excellent and seem especially easy with the 90mm lens, focusing as well as any lens I have experienced.  Double tap on the LCD anywhere and the image is magnified. No peaking, which I don’t like anyway, and once magnified with a double tap on the LCD the image stay magnified when switching to the EVF; nice touch.  There is also a button on the back that magnifies the image and a small button on the top of the camera that toggled between AF/MF; loved it. And, much like the joy stick on the SL, an auto focus button on the back that works in AF/MF modes.
• AF was slow compared to the SL and very slow relative to like my Nikon with often some back and forth hunting regardless of the contrast.  However, like the SL it seemed to very reliable when I compared manual and auto focus images taken out the window or close. 
• Shutter sound is relatively quiet but a bit louder than on my SL and not one click but several.
• While not easy to judge on the LCD, close ups (artificial flowers) I took hand held with the 90mm looked critically sharp at even relatively slow shutter speeds (about 1/30).  The reps said there are plans to add VR to future lenses but I was impressed with just how good hand held images looked.
• The reps also had a H6D there for comparison and I spent some time shooting with both.  While they share the same 50MP sensor and assume image quality, everything just worked as well as or better on the daddy Hassy.  However, even if I could justify the 3-times higher cost, the size advantage of the X1D and lenses are so significant that I would still get the X1D.

Overall an impressive effort by Hasselblad but with shortcomings in speed which in the prototype was maybe 1 frame per 2 or 3 seconds for RAW files but at release is to be increased to more than 1 frame/second; still certainly not a sports camera. The EVF could also be better and might be when released but for my uses where the X1D would spend most of the time on a tripod these are minor relative to a proven excellent 50MP sensor and I have faith will be superb Hasselblad lenses.

 

I have a X1D on order and after spending a few hours with the camera and the two introductory lenses have no plans to cancel.  cheers/gsmith

 

[ramarren]

Nice to read other reports of in-hand experience. I like how we all see different things, and that the comments come from actual experience of the 'camera-in-prototype', rather than conjectures based on specifications and marketing hype. 

 

At the Palo Alto event, with regard to upcoming lenses — the moment I said "ultra wide, like the SWC", most of the heads in the room turned toward where I was talking with the reps and nodded assent. I hope that feedback gets to Hasselblad loud and clear, even though it will cost me a small fortune. 

[Peter H]

I've had en email from Hasselblad (not a personal one, but from the UK representative) saying that they'll be fulfilling pre-orders in late August, so you'd hope they're making good progress with the last stages of transition from prototype to finished article.

[Jeff S]

First, let me say I am former Nikon D810, non-professional landscape photographer that 6 months ago switched to the Leica SL and zoom lenses.  Today I went to the X1D road show demo in Rockville, MD and spent several hours with two prototypes, one with the 45mm and the other 90mm lens.  There were two Hasselblad reps who were not the anticipated sales-types but very knowledgeable and quick to point out limitations like “sorry, the multi-exposure mode doesn’t work yet but will at release” or “there is no auto WB nor plans to add that feature”.  Stating, “we hired 25 engineers this past few weeks due to an overwhelming response to the X1D” thus was reassured Hasselblad is planning to support the camera in a big way.

 

I expected a big crowd from the DC area but in nearly 3 hours maybe 6 or 7 people showed up but that was ok as I had one of the two cameras most of the time and took quite a few images inside and outside through the store windows.  Initial impressions of what the reps repeatedly pointed out as a prototype camera with much being “fixed and improved” prior to release:

 

Do you mean Gaithersburg?  That's the only nearby dealer I know, and it's the one I attended.  If so, you might have come later, as there were 15-20 people initially seated and waiting patiently as the 2 cameras showed up a half hour late.  The cameras finally arrived preciously as if by Brinks truck.  By the time I left at about 3:15, many of the attendees had already wandered off.  You might have signed in on page two of the guest list (page one was about full as I left).

 

The reps were indeed very humble about demo unit shortcomings.  I'm reminded that one of reps had never even held the camera until this showing, seeing it for the first time as the rest of us.  He noted the extraordinary in-house secrecy surrounding the camera's introduction.

 

You also reminded me about the multiple shutter 'clicks'.   I didn't ask if this was a pre-production issue, or just the nature of the beast, as there is no shutter in the body as I understand it.  In any case, it wasn't as refined an experience as the SL shutter action/noise.

 

Jeff

Edited July 8, 2016 by Jeff S

[Gsmith08]

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Do you mean Gaithersburg?  That's the only nearby dealer I know, and it's the one I attended.  If so, you might have come later, as there were 15-20 people initially seated and waiting patiently as the 2 cameras showed up a half hour late.  The cameras finally arrived preciously as if by Brinks truck.  By the time I left at about 3:15, many of the attendees had already wandered off.  You might have signed in on page two of the guest list (page one was about full as I left).

 

The reps were indeed very humble about demo unit shortcomings.  I'm reminded that one of reps had never even held the camera until this showing, seeing it for the first time as the rest of us.  He noted the extraordinary in-house secrecy surrounding the camera's introduction.

 

You also reminded me about the multiple shutter 'clicks'.   I didn't ask if this was a pre-production issue, or just the nature of the beast, as there is no shutter in the body as I understand it.  In any case, it wasn't as refined an experience as the SL shutter action/noise.

 

Jeff

 

Jeff,

 

Right we attended the same demo and I did arrive mid afternoon as you guessed and the few there seemed more interested in the H6D. The Leica SL in general is more refined and perhaps an ideal camera would combine the best of both but given that is not likely any time soon I am still going to own both with the SL as my general goto camera and the X1D primarily for landscapes where the added resolution and dynamic range will be most apparent.  As a former 500C/M user the X1D just felt right and I have great hopes X1D lenses as the first two handeled extremely well, were relative small, and competitively priced; for example Leica S equivalent lenses are huge and far more expensive. 

 

Would be interested in your thoughts and if you are going to preorder or maybe wait for what the competition introduces this year including a rumored MF system from Fuji.

 

Gale

Edited July 8, 2016 by Gsmith08

[Jeff S]

 

Would be interested in your thoughts and if you are going to preorder or maybe wait for what the competition introduces this year including a rumored MF system from Fuji.

 

 

 

Short story, I'm undecided...and waiting.  But that requires some brief context to better understand.  

 

I'm not an early adopter in general, and don't have any GAS to feed the urge.  In addition, I like to test (rent or demo) a system for a period by taking time to shoot and to make prints before deciding whether and how the gear fits into my overall workflow.  Many cameras these days are fine IQ-wise for my print size, but many other factors....with a camera and its lens line....influence my decision.

 

I fully switched to digital in 2009, content to use digital Ms during that period.  Prior to that, since the early 70's, I shot many film formats, from 35mm to MF to 4x5 view cameras, and built 4 darkrooms as I relocated over the years.  Along the way I used Hasselblad, but also 7 or 8 other brands, almost always having a Leica M for handheld work.

 

I've only recently decided to add a complementary system to the M, something to accommodate wider and longer lenses for some landscape and other applications, for both tripod and handheld work.  Ironically, it was my dislike for the M's EVF (and EVFs in general) that prompted me to look for another solution.  Robust weather sealing (camera and lens) is one of many criteria.

 

I tested an S006 and 30-90 zoom for a short while (reported elsewhere)....but, short story, my needs would have been better satisfied with an 007 and a set of primes.  But I'm not willing, for now at least, to spend the necessary bucks, nor to haul around that much bulk.  Too bad, though, since I love that S VF.

 

I then turned my attention to the SL, despite its having EVF.  I liked the menu/interface, having just used the similar S.  It ticked a lot of my boxes, but I'd prefer waiting for some more primes before deciding if that's my direction.

 

In the meantime, by complete surprise, I learned of the X1D.  I'm not convinced about the EVF and I don't know where the lens line is headed.  So for me, it's premature, and that's before I even give it a test run.  But it has enough pluses that I have nothing to lose while I wait to see the direction of the SL lens line, and maybe even see where the S system is headed given all this MF competition (starting with the Pentax 645Z, which seemed to be a factor in encouraging Leica to significantly modify its price point).  

 

The Fuji rumor has been out there for a while.  The reps privately said yesterday that even if it's announced at Photokina, it might not be released until well into next year.  We'll see.

 

Bottom line, no rush.  I'm still making prints as always, often finding ways to improve them by concentrating on other aspects in the print workflow beyond the camera and lens....at a fraction of the cost.  Great times, though, for gear-seekers these days....no lack of options.

 

Jeff

Edited July 8, 2016 by Jeff S

[Peter H]

Short story, I'm undecided...and waiting.  But that requires some brief context to better understand.  

 

I'm not an early adopter in general, and don't have any GAS to feed the urge.  In addition, I like to test (rent or demo) a system for a period by taking time to shoot and to make prints before deciding whether and how the gear fits into my overall workflow.  ............................................................

.............................................................

Bottom line, no rush.  I'm still making prints as always, often finding ways to improve them by concentrating on other aspects in the print workflow beyond the camera and lens....at a fraction of the cost.  Great times, though, for gear-seekers these days....no lack of options.

 

Jeff

 

 

 

Jeff, I'd just like to say how much I admire your totally rational approach to photographic equipment, and have done for quite a while so this message comes as no surprise to me.

[ramarren]

I've had en email from Hasselblad (not a personal one, but from the UK representative) saying that they'll be fulfilling pre-orders in late August, so you'd hope they're making good progress with the last stages of transition from prototype to finished article.

 

 

I'm sure they are. Anything we saw at these demo days is at least two weeks old at this point, and my experience with firmware/software development is that the game usually comes together fastest right at the end. 

[Jeff S]

Jeff, I'd just like to say how much I admire your totally rational approach to photographic equipment, and have done for quite a while so this message comes as no surprise to me.

 

Less so in my early days.  Older and wiser.....and retired.

 

Jeff

[erlingmm]

X1D or SL? S007, if you ask me. Just did 2 major mountain walks in Norway - Besseggen in fantastic weather, with S007, 24mm (love it!) and 70. The day after - Mugnetind, same setup, was surprised by rain that turned into slush and snow (in July!) as we ascended towards 5000 feet. Camera soaked, but survived. That's what a proper landscape camera should endure!

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Edited July 8, 2016 by erlingmm

[Jeff S]

Here's more on the X1D from Ming Thein, including authorized pics, as well as some user impressions compared to the SL and other systems (including reference to S lenses, the Q, etc)....see comments as well.  

 

https://blog.mingthein.com/2016/07/06/hasselblad-x1d-early-impressions-with-samples/

 

I hope he's right regarding the weather sealing, forthcoming EVF contrast/brightness improvements, etc.  He's already in love with Hasselblad MF color, IQ, etc.

 

Jeff

Edited July 9, 2016 by Jeff S

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Not surprising since he's got a formal association with Hasselblad. Hardly the height of independence, anymore.

 

Gordon

[tom0511]

I find it a bit scary that just very few weeks before first cameras shall be deliver Hasselblad just presents pre-production cameras with quite some things not fully working yet.

In my case I would not order a camera in this price range  without having seen a real production unit and how it works.

[Peter H]

I find it a bit scary that just very few weeks before first cameras shall be deliver Hasselblad just presents pre-production cameras with quite some things not fully working yet.

In my case I would not order a camera in this price range without having seen a real production unit and how it works.

If Hasselblad conformed to standard practice, they wouldn't let anyone other than officially appointed reviewers see anything at this stage, so these public demonstrations and opportunities to handle pre-productions models is a more open, honest and progressive approach than usual and to be commended in my view. Edited July 9, 2016 by Peter H

[wattsy]

In my case I would not order a camera in this price range  without having seen a real production unit and how it works.

 

 

I'm sure it'll turn out fine in the end but I agree about not ordering before production units are available. I'm not sure what the hurry is anyway, the camera will still be available next year (and the year after..). 

[Peter H]

I'm sure it'll turn out fine in the end but I agree about not ordering before production units are available. I'm not sure what the hurry is anyway, the camera will still be available next year (and the year after..).

Your forbearance is commendable, but I expect lots of people enjoy the excitement they feel when a new camera is announced, and can't help feeling impatient to learn all about it.

 

They don't all buy it before it's finished though.

[Steve Spencer]

I'm sure it'll turn out fine in the end but I agree about not ordering before production units are available. I'm not sure what the hurry is anyway, the camera will still be available next year (and the year after..). 

 

I think the hurry for Hasselblad is they want to bring this camera to market before someone else bring a mirrorless MF camera to market, so they are definitely pushing the envelope about delivery time. 

 

For individuals like me who have preordered, I did so kmowing that I can cancel my order before making a final decision. I am sure I will check out a final production model before I have to make a final decision. For me it was just a matter of getting in line. I don't expect a very early delivery. Perhaps November.

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

Your forbearance is commendable, but I expect lots of people enjoy the excitement they feel when a new camera is announced, and can't help feeling impatient to learn all about it.

 

They don't all buy it before it's finished though.

 

Except the last bit that sounds a lot like me.

 

Gordon