The Leica M-D thread - merged.

[Peter H]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Ah again, no. Hundreds, possibly thousands were involved, not somebody.   I doubt they think of them selves as photographers. Or did someone actually remotely pressed the shutter?  Gives new meaning to the notion of decisive moment, given in the case of the first photo, VF and shutter lag would have totaled over two hours.  

 

Wriggle all you like puny human meat bag, but soon, very soon, your presence will no longer be required. 

 

 

If you believe as some do that every photograph is an autobiography, the things you are talking about are not photographs, even though they share a name until a new one is invented. 

[rivi1969]

Yes, I must have very low standards compared to you, Jaap.

 

With a little experience, it is IMO quite easy to make a judgement about both exposure and focus based on what can be seen on even a crappy LCD like the one on the M8/9. With better LCDs like that found on a contemporary DSLR, it is even easier. There is no need to carry around a calibrated Eizo monitor to make a meaningful decision.

There are other more simple people like me than rather than judging exposure just want to make sure we got our wife's right smile. (They can be very picky) the lcd comes handy for that too.

[Tailwagger]

If you believe as some do that every photograph is an autobiography, the things you are talking about are not photographs, even though they share a name until a new one is invented. 

 

Personally I don't see things that way.  I agree that into every image we meat bags make or at least choose to take to completion, there is no lack of the makers mark in it. But the bulk of what's in a photograph, at least as I practice the art, is more aleatory. Less about the self, more about where one simply happens to find oneself and under what circumstance.

 

Regarding the comment that sparked this sidebar, I'm sure that dozens of early 1900's mavens trashed the very design beloved by Puts for exactly the same reasons... roll film photography has made things too easy, too mindless, the art, the challenge, the professionalism is gone.  BS. Technology simply shifts the nature of the skills required. There is no decisive moment when pulling a lens cap from a Petzval on a 30 second exposure, for example.  Indeed by adopting his tone, one could counter the M-D comments by observing that the design [begin total sarcasm] is merely an accommodation for those so weak willed, so lacking in disciplined that they simply can't resist the baser urges of the lower primates.  The only cure is to lobotomize their camera.  Woe is the state of photography... how can such jelly fish be permitted to find any path to expression? [end total sarcasm]

 

But when one believes that an image's value, if any, rests in its content, not with who delivered it nor how that delivery was accomplished, you can move pass these dust ups... eventually.

[Steve Ricoh]

Interesting discussion, but there's no correct or incorrect answer.

[jdlaing]

Sure there is. Your answer is the correct one. Nothing else matters.

[DezFoto]

Lossless compression was implemented on M9/MM and M240/246 platforms, don't know about earlier platforms like M8 or S cameras.  

 

M8 was lossy compression, M9 was "visually lossless" but information was actually discarded or averaged and would make a difference when doing extreme editing or shooting in poor light and the M 240 is supposed to be completely lossless. 

[Verteidiger]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

No

Uncompressed only

BTW you can download the manual online

 

"PERMANENT CAMERA SETTINGS

This camera saves the picture data in compressed loss-free DNG

format. White balance is automatic."

 

(P. 77 of the [downloaded] German-English manual, which is the exact translation of p. 23: "FESTE KAMERA-EINSTELLUNGEN Diese Kamera speichert die Bilddaten im verlustfrei komprimierten DNG-Format. Der Weißabgleich erfolgt automatisch.")

[tthorne]

I am not going to bother to read the entire thread because I get the gist of the disagreement some have. I will just add to the conversation that I have had my M-D since last week and I love it. Recently I have really only been shooing my MP film bodies and there is really no escaping the fact that it is a different experience vs shooting my recently retired M-P240s and M246. I love them all, but if I am being honest, I still love shooting film far more. Of course for my work I shoot digital on the SL and the S007, but when I am just shooting for me, it is the M all the way and film is generally the preference. 

 

Anyhow, the M-D so far is exactly what I wanted it to be. It is an extension of my film cameras, nothing more or less. Same experience and operation on the street. Everything I love and nothing extra. It is no surprise that every shot taken with it so far has been properly exposed and focused. I mean, come on, this is really nothing new. And with the Optical viewfinder of the M, there is no black out, so it is easy to see when someone flinches or blinks, and simply take a followup shot. Pretty simple. I find the lack of LCD very fitting to my shooting style and I am thrilled to have an analog ISO dial. 

 

My only wish is that the M-D version finds a permanent home in the M variants with future models and Monochrom models as well. I honestly question whether I could bring myself to buy another M with an LCD after this experience. 

 

Of course, I don't expect that everyone should have the same style or flow on the street or with whatever they are shooting. I don't expect that everyone really have the desire to match their digital experience so closely to that of their film. With respect though, I do know that there are a lot of us who do feel this way, and as such, I am very thankful that Leica had the fortitude to make such a camera. Words cannot express my thankfulness. 

Edited May 8, 2016 by tthorne

[BerndReini]

Like many of you I own multiple Leica cameras (film and digital) as well as medium format and large format film cameras. I am pretty good at adjusting my shooting style to whatever camera I am using, and it is pretty liberating when I do so. When I carry my MM, I only "see" black and white images, color photographs don't exist. Every once in a while something is so striking, e.g. a red door in Chinatown with a mint green classic car parked in front of it, and I will say: "Well, there's a color photo I won't be taking."

 

Where it gets really difficult is when I travel. Before my last trip to Germany I was agonizing over which camera(s) to take. I shared my questions with my colleague and he said, the M9 and the MM of course with a 35mm and a 50. Off I went with this combo, and it really offered me everything I needed. I shot more black and white than color, I felt like I had a backup in case something happened, and I didn't feel like I was missing anything essential.

 

I think I could easily get used to the M-D and I would really enjoy the experience, but really the last thing I need is one more camera to clog up my head with. I can't ever get myself to sell any of my Leicas, so it is just better for me to stop buying new ones in the first place.Of course as I am writing this I am thinking about how nice it would be to have a Q ... or an S.

[Exodies]

I doubt whether anyone could tell if a blink and the sound of the shutter took place at the same time. 

[-Lss-]

I doubt whether anyone could tell if a blink and the sound of the shutter took place at the same time.

Try it, you surely get close. And when you "know" or have any doubt, you make another exposure. Beats looking at the screen, breaking the flow, and inconveniencing the subject.

 

Of course, you can just make a couple exposures by default anyway.

[menos I M6]

I doubt whether anyone could tell if a blink and the sound of the shutter took place at the same time. 

 

After a while of shooting a rangefinder camera you will absolutely be able to do just that.

This is the one single major advantage of rangefinder cameras (and TLR cameras for the very same reason) over SLR cameras.

 

In fact one of the major issues I had when updating one of my cameras to a MM2 was that the MM2 does have a more responsive shutter (less shutter lag), which threw my timing completely off as I was fully accustomed to how my M9 and MM were working.

With the MM2 I had immediately a lot of out of focus shots of moving subjects (the timing between focussing and pressing the shutter button in anticipation of the subject moving into focus simply was off with the change in shutter lag), I had a lot of wrongly timed shots (portrait subjects blinking, people in mid stride while walking, etc…).

 

This is something very, very sensitive to change on any camera and needs to be trained from camera to camera.

This is one simple reasons why EVF cameras suck so bad. This is one reason why so many old film photographers hated digital Leicas when trying them as film Leica bodies have simply no shutter lag whatsoever.

 

When you shoot portraits with a Leica M you are accustomed to, digital or film you can absolutely time shots and you will learn to know with a high degree of certainty when you got a shot with your subject blinking an eye.

[Exodies]

Do you think this level of coordination could be learned on an M-D?

 

I shoot the city so my only timing constraint is to get there before something is demolished.

[Peter H]

Try it, you surely get close. And when you "know" or have any doubt, you make another exposure. Beats looking at the screen, breaking the flow, and inconveniencing the subject.

 

...........................

 

This is a slightly disrespectful interpretation of how people use their screens in my opinion: it seems to suggest they check every shot and are insensitive to their subjects as well as their own photography. It doesn't feel very realistic to me.

[likealot]

I'm liking the concept of M-D, its simplicity and design which link the past with the future. However I cant help but feel that Leica have somehow limited the potential number of buyers to only those who feel comfortable with taking pictures without chimping. It's a bit like a stepping stone for film lovers into digital.

 

I would love to see Leica develop the M-D further by adding the possibility of linking your phone to the camera (by cable or bluetooth) so that the phone could be used as a screen. Or even if Leica developed an actual small screen that could be connected to the outside of the camera through the hotshoe. It would attract a lot mor customers.

[-Lss-]

This is a slightly disrespectful interpretation of how people use their screens in my opinion: it seems to suggest they check every shot and are insensitive to their subjects as well as their own photography. It doesn't feel very realistic to me.

You are putting words in my mouth. There is no such interpretation in my post.

[BerndReini]

 

In fact one of the major issues I had when updating one of my cameras to a MM2 was that the MM2 does have a more responsive shutter (less shutter lag), which threw my timing completely off as I was fully accustomed to how my M9 and MM were working.

With the MM2 I had immediately a lot of out of focus shots of moving subjects (the timing between focussing and pressing the shutter button in anticipation of the subject moving into focus simply was off with the change in shutter lag), I had a lot of wrongly timed shots (portrait subjects blinking, people in mid stride while walking, etc…).

Dirk, you cannot call that shutter lag. The MM1 has no shutter lag at all. Maybe the shutter button has longer travel, but I am not even sure that's the case. The only difference between the shutter of the MM1 and MM2 (or M9 and M240) is the loud recocking sound of the earlier versions, but at that point the exposure has already been taken.

 

I found this in an older thread about the M8:

 

 

For the M8 the shutter lag according to Leica is 80ms.

 

To say that there is more shutter lag is misleading. I am very sensitive to shutter lag, and I only shoot with an MM1 and M9. As a matter of fat, I found live view with the M240 useless for my street shooting because of the lag time between pressing the shutter to taking the exposure due to the sensor clearing.

Edited May 9, 2016 by BerndReini

[jdlaing]

Sensor cleaning?

[menos I M6]

Dirk, you cannot call that shutter lag. The MM1 has no shutter lag at all. Maybe the shutter button has longer travel, but I am not even sure that's the case. The only difference between the shutter of the MM1 and MM2 (or M9 and M240) is the loud recocking sound of the earlier versions, but at that point the exposure has already been taken.

 

I found this in an older thread about the M8:

 

To say that there is more shutter lag is misleading. I am very sensitive to shutter lag, and I only shoot with an MM1 and M9. As a matter of fat, I found live view with the M240 useless for my street shooting because of the lag time between pressing the shutter to taking the exposure due to the sensor clearing.

 

Bernd, I have been shooting the MM since it became available.

I have been shooting the M9 in parallel and for several years before that and have been shooting the M8.2 before that (Except the MM which I sadly had to upgrade I still have all of these cameras).

 

I am very used to how the digital M8 and 9 series bodies behave and always felt that there is a major difference in shutter lag between these two generation of digital M bodies and film bodies (which do have basically no shutter lag at all).

 

Why have I been so sensitive to that? I had bitten my teeth out to learn how to focus long, fast lenses with these digitals with fast moving subjects and the timing involved to get your focussing, shutter release and actual capture in sync is very different from film M bodies (film M: instantaneous capture, M8/9 generation body, capture with a slight delay).

 

The Leica MM2 does have significant less reaction time from shutter release to actual capture - how I know that? I didn't do actual lab measurements, but I found that with the change from MM to MM2 magically all my shots were off in timing.

Subjects that moved towards or away from me were out of focus. Shots, taken from a moving vehicle were out of focus. People, photographed seemingly in mid stride where half a pace off in timing, …

 

At first my initial reaction was to check up the rangefinder calibration (as not a single one of newly purchased Leica M bodies I have held in my hands had been calibrated properly thus far).

Yes, this MM2 was no exception, the rangefinder calibration was off, yet only minor.

My issues continued even after fine calibration of the rangefinder and I almost packed it all in and prepared to sell the camera and had my nervous fingers already on several second hand MM1 bodies to get back to my known and loved Mono (it was my main camera since I got it and I still consider the MM1 the worlds best camera over all - yes, better than the MM2 with only two single exceptions:

- the MM2 has a faster shutter response (this can be a curse, as I learned or an improvement - if you don't mix it with older generation digital M bodies)

- the MM2 sensor does push high ISO usability a stop further from the MM1 - not a better sensor, just a stop more light (for me a similar experience in adding a M9 to my M8.2 - you gain a stop in low light but it is not necessarily a better sensor).

 

Well it turns out with the MM2 one has to press the shutter release ever so slightly earlier in order to get the same results as with the M8/9 generation cameras. This is due to the new generation cameras having less shutter lag (the time that passes between actual shutter button release and the camera's actual exposure).

 

I am not making this up. I learned about it out of simple frustration of lots and lots of messed up photographs since using the MM2 (which I still do not like very much, yet there was for me only the choice of either ponying up for the upgrade or waiting at least 6 months for a hopeful return of my MM with a new sensor).

 

Try it out yourself - rent a MM2 and try to shot identical shots which are critical for timing - first with your old gen body, you are used to, then with the new MM2 - guaranteed, the shots will be off.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[ramarren]

Sensor cleaning?

 

 

Page 97 in the owners manual describes how to clean the sensor. It is, of course, a procedure that uses the FN button...