S 006 focus error

[jpk]

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Many thanks for contributing! This makes me hope that cure is possible. I will send in my gear and report back!

[LeicaR10]

JPK,  You might look at the Leica S & M Warranty and Fixes forum and 33% Failure Rate forum.  My question for Leica, Why does the auto focus issue exist after the first generation S2, 2nd generation S 006 and now 3rd generation S 007?  Three generations of S cameras and you would think the hardware and software engineers at Leica would have gotten this issue resolved...years ago. The SL has the same problem...WHY?   Leica should not expect S users to continue buying the products with multi-generational AF issues with $17-$20K+ camera bodies, much less S lens issues.....r/ LeicaR10

[jpk]

Hi again! I received my 006 with the 2 lenses back from repair. AF was fixed in both cases without cost. The 70mm now works fine, but the 180mm only sometimes focuses perfectly: 70% of the shots are mis-focused. My 006 has the split-image screen installed, so I can see very clearly if focus is fine or not. If I focus on the same subject many times, only in 2 or 3 out of 10 times focus is perfect. This happens in far distance and in the close range. Please share your experience: is the AF of the 180mm significantly less consistent than of the 70mm? Or should it show at least the same focus error every time?

[ZHNL]

I sent my whole package to Leica. Now I am with S007 loaner. From a few test I have, I feel the AF accuracy doesn't improve much, it is much faster than before but it may not better than S006 in term of real world benefit.

 

With Canikon, the AF is fast and lock fast as well. They almost never hunt these days. You usually don't get long range of AF focusing hunt but not Leica S. S007 will focus back and forth a lot, in a very fast manner. especially with short distance shooting. (it happen both AF-S and AF-C with AF-C is much worse). So, with the limit experience I have so far, I actually slightly prefer S006.  

 

However, I must say I really love S007's shutter and shorter mirror blank out delay. It is Canikon good now.   

 

The AF is poor compare to 35mm option. but it is good enough most of time for my use. long distance AF is still not good but at lest it has a digital window to show DOF, it will help manual focusing. 

[jpk]

I carefully made some test shots. Now the problem seems to be a mis-alignment of the focusing screen: the split image of the microprism focusing screen shows mis-focus while the AF achieves sharp files. I guess I have to send in the 006 again for adjustment of the focusing screen...

[erlingmm]

I carefully made some test shots. Now the problem seems to be a mis-alignment of the focusing screen: the split image of the microprism focusing screen shows mis-focus while the AF achieves sharp files. I guess I have to send in the 006 again for adjustment of the focusing screen...

 

 

Are you sure the focusing screen is fully in place? Have you changed it yourself? There is a final snap that is very important for it to be in place, see the instructions for illustration.

[jpk]

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Are you sure the focusing screen is fully in place? Have you changed it yourself? There is a final snap that is very important for it to be in place, see the instructions for illustration.

 

Thanks for the hint! The focusing screen was installed by Leica Germany. After repair I get good results with AF but not with MF (I have to add that in my earlier post I described the S180mm as mis-focusing, but this was actually only by checking the viewfinder as I did not notice in the first place that now AF was fine and MF was wrong: this only appeared after I checked actual images taken with AF and with MF). So today I sent in my 006 with the 180mm again. It seems that correct focus is the main problem with Leica in the M system (check out this thread) and also in the S system...

[menos I M6]

I had similar issues as the OP, especially with longer AF lenses (140mm and longer) on my S2.

I just went through Wetzlar with the S2 and a nice tech has final calibrated the Af system in the body (this is done electronically) and has then matched as closely as he could the focussing screen (this is done mechanically and is a VERY LABORIOUS operation, having to disassemble half the camera and calibrate spring tension of the focussing screen holder through the top of the camera with the top housing removed).

 

The tech told me that even at a 3-7 hour operation a perfect match between AF system and split screen confirmation cannot be achieved as of the design of the mechanical nature of the calibration method.

 

After he was done, the AF works beautifully on all lenses and the manual focussing works good enough that the very, very tiny mismatch between AF confirmation (which is actually quite loose) and split screen doesn't show with a 300/2.8 lens.

 

 

For anyone with this issue: get the body calibrated (and have your lenses independently checked and confirmed)

[ynp]

I had similar issues as the OP, especially with longer AF lenses (140mm and longer) on my S2.

I just went through Wetzlar with the S2 and a nice tech has final calibrated the Af system in the body (this is done electronically) and has then matched as closely as he could the focussing screen (this is done mechanically and is a VERY LABORIOUS operation, having to disassemble half the camera and calibrate spring tension of the focussing screen holder through the top of the camera with the top housing removed).

 

The tech told me that even at a 3-7 hour operation a perfect match between AF system and split screen confirmation cannot be achieved as of the design of the mechanical nature of the calibration method.

 

After he was done, the AF works beautifully on all lenses and the manual focussing works good enough that the very, very tiny mismatch between AF confirmation (which is actually quite loose) and split screen doesn't show with a 300/2.8 lens.

 

 

For anyone with this issue: get the body calibrated (and have your lenses independently checked and confirmed)

Thank you for the information. Would Leica accept the Contax lenses for lens-camera calibration? I feel that I have some problems with my C210 and S180.

[menos I M6]

Thank you for the information. Would Leica accept the Contax lenses for lens-camera calibration? I feel that I have some problems with my C210 and S180.

 

For travel restrictions I only brought my S2 body + 70/2.5 but I made use of several longer Leica S lenses while in Wetzlar to test the freshly calibrated body.

To have the body checked out and calibrated first is a good baseline to judge what other issues in the system cause a focussing error.

 

When you have focussing issues with specific S lenses, it is best to bring those lenses along (the lens tech, explained me that with S lenses potential focussing issues can be calibrated in the factory).

I doubt this can be done with the Contax 645 lenses by Leica.

 

If after all a Contax lens turns out t be cause of an issue one can only try to get it rectified with Kyocera in Japan :-(

 

The one thing that was stressed to me by the S body tech in Wetzlar was that it really is almost impossible to perfectly sync the auto focus system (electronic) to the display of the split focussing screen (100% mechanic from mirror position to focussing screen holder calibration to spring tension of focussing screen mechanism to pentaprism).

What makes that sync so difficult is that the only way to actually calibrate this is by operating through the top of the camera with the body half disassembled and then reassembling to check back, … which makes this calibration such an extremely laborious operation.

 

I hope this issue will lead to a change in design in future S products, as focus system calibration is very, very critical already with "just" 37MP - what will become of it in future products with higher resolution and even more critical tolerances of the focus system? Will a future Leica S be EVF only to remove the intrinsic difficulties of the mechanics from this issue and offer software based focus adjustments just like high end 35mm camera systems from Canon and Nikon?

 

A software based AF fine tune functionality as with the Nikon gear I use in combination with a user adjustable focus screen holder (shims) would be a great solution to this issue, especially as we are only talking one single AF sensor with the S, rather then the very many sensors, spread over the frame with the Nikon gear.

 

I hope Leica engineers do consider this in future body designs (and stick to an optical finder of course).

[jpk]

What makes that sync so difficult is that the only way to actually calibrate this is by operating through the top of the camera with the body half disassembled and then reassembling to check back

 

Many thanks for the information. Did he tell you if this is done by trial and error or is it possible to calibrate to a measured value?

[menos I M6]

Many thanks for the information. Did he tell you if this is done by trial and error or is it possible to calibrate to a measured value?

 

Trial and Error would be a bit misleading but what I took away from the conversation was that it is rather a calibration made with a lot of experience and fine adjustment of spring tension without the ability of immediate feedback after doing a calibration.

There stands the process of disassembling the camera and reassembling the camera between every cycle of checking focus and adjusting focus, hence the insane amount of labour of this procedure (my S2 in this case took two calibration attempts, each costing about half a day's work).

 

This is very much unlike the process of calibrating the body's and lens's AF calibration (done electronically), which has the luxury of attaching either unit to a checking rig, which will measure the amount of misalignment and let the technician correct until within tolerance entirely software-based.

 

Both are independent procedures (AF calibration of lens/body and focussing screen calibration), but it was stressed, that the actual AF sensor (if calibrated properly) has a higher accuracy than the visual feedback of the split focussing screen.

 

So the final advice from the Leica S body tech specialist was to rather trust the AF confirmation (with a properly calibrated AF) in the viewfinder than work with the split screen, which cannot be calibrated to such a high accuracy as the AF system in the Leica S.

 

If you have a Leica S focussing issue and have a chance to bring it personally to Wetzlar, do it if you can - just a short chat with the very nice gentleman who does the actual service work is enlightening. I learned more about the S focussing system listening to 2 minutes to him than spending a year on an internet forum ;-)

 

 

Please remember: my case was about my Leica S2 body focussing issue - at no point during the talk did the conversation touch any possible improvements or technical changes in later 006 or 007 type camera bodies.

As any improvements were not mentioned regarding these though, it is likely that these bodies are designed and behave similar to the S2 body design in the case of it's focus system and it's calibration method.

[ZHNL]

Dirk, thanks for the information. If that is the case with S, I have to say the camera designer should be fired. For SLR, really there are three path: to sensor, to AF engine and to OVF. With Canikon system, a shimmer or two will solve the focus screen calibration.

 

For the AF engine and sensor calibration, I really think S system should implement AF micro adjust like any other high resolution sensor camera do right now. That will save a lots of labor and customer hassle to ship the camera for service. 

[xiaubauu2009]

For travel restrictions I only brought my S2 body + 70/2.5 but I made use of several longer Leica S lenses while in Wetzlar to test the freshly calibrated body.

To have the body checked out and calibrated first is a good baseline to judge what other issues in the system cause a focussing error.

 

When you have focussing issues with specific S lenses, it is best to bring those lenses along (the lens tech, explained me that with S lenses potential focussing issues can be calibrated in the factory).

I doubt this can be done with the Contax 645 lenses by Leica.

 

If after all a Contax lens turns out t be cause of an issue one can only try to get it rectified with Kyocera in Japan :-(

 

The one thing that was stressed to me by the S body tech in Wetzlar was that it really is almost impossible to perfectly sync the auto focus system (electronic) to the display of the split focussing screen (100% mechanic from mirror position to focussing screen holder calibration to spring tension of focussing screen mechanism to pentaprism).

What makes that sync so difficult is that the only way to actually calibrate this is by operating through the top of the camera with the body half disassembled and then reassembling to check back, … which makes this calibration such an extremely laborious operation.

 

I hope this issue will lead to a change in design in future S products, as focus system calibration is very, very critical already with "just" 37MP - what will become of it in future products with higher resolution and even more critical tolerances of the focus system? Will a future Leica S be EVF only to remove the intrinsic difficulties of the mechanics from this issue and offer software based focus adjustments just like high end 35mm camera systems from Canon and Nikon?

 

A software based AF fine tune functionality as with the Nikon gear I use in combination with a user adjustable focus screen holder (shims) would be a great solution to this issue, especially as we are only talking one single AF sensor with the S, rather then the very many sensors, spread over the frame with the Nikon gear.

 

I hope Leica engineers do consider this in future body designs (and stick to an optical finder of course).

 

Coming from using A7r2 with Zeiss Loxia lens, I think the solution for manual focus in the future for Leica S (008~) will be to do without the OVF and just use the lovely 4mpx EVF they have in the SL and do a auto focus assist (zoom in view) everytime you turn the focus ring ala Zeiss Loxia manual lens on a A7r2. I have never had any miss shot with that tech and even with the giant Otus lens on the small Sony body, it's almost fool proof!!!!!

[menos I M6]

Coming from using A7r2 with Zeiss Loxia lens, I think the solution for manual focus in the future for Leica S (008~) will be to do without the OVF and just use the lovely 4mpx EVF they have in the SL and do a auto focus assist (zoom in view) everytime you turn the focus ring ala Zeiss Loxia manual lens on a A7r2. I have never had any miss shot with that tech and even with the giant Otus lens on the small Sony body, it's almost fool proof!!!!!

 

I wouldn't want to trade any current tech EVF camera for an OVF camera as good as current top models from Canon, Nikon and Leica.

EVF tech has it's place but it's worst weaknesses in current implementation make it a technology simply not ready for prime time for certain applications.

 

Photography that is based on still subjects, shot from support tor anything slow moving sure works great with EVF tech of today. Anything moving fast - no thanks?

The future Leica S needs user focus fine-tune options for each lens via menu, a user adjustable focus screen position (Nikon for example uses replaceable shims to fine adjust the focus screen) and it needs a massively improved AF system to widen it's applications.

[xiaubauu2009]

I wouldn't want to trade any current tech EVF camera for an OVF camera as good as current top models from Canon, Nikon and Leica.

EVF tech has it's place but it's worst weaknesses in current implementation make it a technology simply not ready for prime time for certain applications.

 

Photography that is based on still subjects, shot from support tor anything slow moving sure works great with EVF tech of today. Anything moving fast - no thanks?

The future Leica S needs user focus fine-tune options for each lens via menu, a user adjustable focus screen position (Nikon for example uses replaceable shims to fine adjust the focus screen) and it needs a massively improved AF system to widen it's applications.

 

Disagree on this, if it's manual focus, then fast moving subject from evf of course is not viable, and I am sure same goes to ovf, it's just not good enough. But in AF, it's just as good as ovf and with focus peaking tech add on, in fact I will say it's better than OVF, the downfall is during lowlight and the noisy image you get from EVF... but I don't find it that limiting when using the sony a7 at night photography.

 

After using A7 for half a year now, I truly belief for critical focus, all you need is EVF and focus peaking. All these adjustment are all subject to user error and tinkering with the internal mechanism of the camera, which like you say, subject to a lot of operator experience and error and in the end still might not work. I would rather get my focus accurate based on the final image indication confirmation (focus peaking since it's contrast detect techno) to nail the focus every single time.

[menos I M6]

Affordable camera bodies as the Nikon D800E I use show that very precise calibration and fast, reliable auto focus is possible.

It works beautifully with any lens from super wide to very long super telephoto lenses on still subjects and extremely fast subjects.

 

Leica is with the S system simply behind the technology curve, others have already achieved.

 

I am not willing to deal the fantastic OVF for EVF with their current limitations for the lack of Leica's current focussing tech.

 

The OVF is still by today's standards superior for certain photography.

 

Oh - manual focus on a SLR works perfectly fine, sports photographers did this for a century before EVFs even saw first applications in consumer cameras ;-)

 

WEC 6 hours of Shanghai - Fri - No 31 Lotus Praga LMP2 by Dirk Steffen, on Flickr

 

WEC 6 hours of Shanghai - Sat - No 7 Toyota TS030 - Hybrid by Dirk Steffen, on Flickr

 

Those are from a photographer who has no clue about manual focus SLRs (I much prefer rangefinder focussing to a ground glass).

Imagine what an experienced sports shooter could do - actually just look at ANY motor sports photograph taken before Canon and Nikon introduced their first AF super tele lenses in the late 80's.

 

Here is some more motor sports shots - some made with Auto focus, some mad with manual focus, with Nikon, Leica S and Leica M cameras. I would hate to do this with an EVF.

https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=52593619%40N02&view_all=1&text=racing

[xiaubauu2009]

Affordable camera bodies as the Nikon D800E I use show that very precise calibration and fast, reliable auto focus is possible.

It works beautifully with any lens from super wide to very long super telephoto lenses on still subjects and extremely fast subjects.

 

Leica is with the S system simply behind the technology curve, others have already achieved.

 

I am not willing to deal the fantastic OVF for EVF with their current limitations for the lack of Leica's current focussing tech.

 

The OVF is still by today's standards superior for certain photography.

 

Oh - manual focus on a SLR works perfectly fine, sports photographers did this for a century before EVFs even saw first applications in consumer cameras ;-)

 

WEC 6 hours of Shanghai - Fri - No 31 Lotus Praga LMP2 by Dirk Steffen, on Flickr

 

WEC 6 hours of Shanghai - Sat - No 7 Toyota TS030 - Hybrid by Dirk Steffen, on Flickr

 

Those are from a photographer who has no clue about manual focus SLRs (I much prefer rangefinder focussing to a ground glass).

Imagine what an experienced sports shooter could do - actually just look at ANY motor sports photograph taken before Canon and Nikon introduced their first AF super tele lenses in the late 80's.

 

Here is some more motor sports shots - some made with Auto focus, some mad with manual focus, with Nikon, Leica S and Leica M cameras. I would hate to do this with an EVF.

https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=52593619%40N02&view_all=1&text=racing

 

True, that manual focus has been around for a long time and people have doing manual focus on them with no problem, but again, you are talking about photographer with some level of skill and experience, I am saying that  a fool proof technology that doesn't required much skill or equipment calibaration to allow butter hand user such as myself to achieve precise focus. I particularly despice the idea of calibaration of body, it is really is just band-aid to an imperfect situation.

 

I do feel that EVF is going to be big in the near future, OVF is nice ,but it's old and starting to feel its age with today's huge 1.4 lens (eg. Zeiss Otus for Canon or Nikon, you can't reliably focus at 1.4 on Canon or Nikon body without using live view, cause there's no split screen and the focus confirm is basically a f2.8 accuracy)

[menos I M6]

True, that manual focus has been around for a long time and people have doing manual focus on them with no problem, but again, you are talking about photographer with some level of skill and experience, I am saying that  a fool proof technology that doesn't required much skill or equipment calibaration to allow butter hand user such as myself to achieve precise focus. I particularly despice the idea of calibaration of body, it is really is just band-aid to an imperfect situation.

 

I do feel that EVF is going to be big in the near future, OVF is nice ,but it's old and starting to feel its age with today's huge 1.4 lens (eg. Zeiss Otus for Canon or Nikon, you can't reliably focus at 1.4 on Canon or Nikon body without using live view, cause there's no split screen and the focus confirm is basically a f2.8 accuracy)

 

EVF cameras will at some point surely be the major product - it is cheaper to produce and maintain and at some point will mature and loose most of it's current down falls no doubt.

For high end SLR cameras (such as the Leica S or pro grade Canon/Nikon cameras) there is absolutely no contest today about the superiority of OVF. EVF simply are too slow, too low in resolution, too eye tiring, too finicky in their implementation on todays cameras that I refuse to use them.

 

Sure it is a bad example, but when I recently (unwillingly) upgraded my MM to the newer model, I also bought out of curiosity a EVF to go with it, just to see how that old tech worked - well it exactly (very precisely really) enforced all my doubts and critics about the EVF technology. Granted the Leica EVF for the M10 generation bodies is ancient tech by now but that is the prime example about everything that is wrong with EVF.

 

Regarding the ability to focus fast lenses: I do use custom made Canon OEM full matte bright screens in my Nikon bodies (no split screen and very sensitive for fast lenses) these work fantastic and truly precise for fast lenses as my Noct Nikkor or lenses like a 105/1.8 AiS - no argument there that an OTUS could not be focussed precisely as of a lack of available tech with OVF.

I had to precisely shim these focus screens on the D800E though (shims are supplied in the kit), to get the perfect precision.

 

Now there are no faster lenses then f2 lenses for the S system (and highly unlikely ever will) the available manual focus screen in the Leica S is by itself perfectly capable of precisely focussing manual focus fast medium format lenses - in the current S it is just a lack of body design that doesn't allow of the user to finely calibrate that focus screen to what really happens at the sensor (with the same resolution Nikon D800E the focus screen mechanism is engineered to be shimmed by design).

 

The last point about this though is a very important one (if one is honest, even a point that speaks against EVF in terms of focussing precision):

With 35mm or medium format systems, the most critical factor in determining perfect focus with very fast lenses is not wether EVF or OVF technology is more capable of displaying focus errors precisely enough.

It is in fact the photographers themselves who are the cause of missed focus.

 

When shooting a portrait with a 58/1.2 Noct-Nikkor on a D800E or doing the same with a Leica S and 80/2 Planar or using a 100/2 Summicron, the impact of just slightly swaying your upper body back or forward, or the sitter breathing and ever so slightly (a few millimeters really) moving their face has such a much bigger impact on technically accurate focus then a tiny misalignment in a focussing screen.

Now the OVF has a slight advantage - the photographer can see truly life, when this occurs and can time the shot on good camera bodies with almost no delay.

EVF cameras of today do have a longer delay between what you see and what really happens. That deal can be critical.

 

I admit, that the Leica M accessory EVF has atrociously bad delay from when one presses the shutter release until when the camera finally will have decided to maybe inform the shutter to please release if convenient.

Also the Leica S2 isn't the best example as of it's rather very long delay between pressing the shutter release and actual exposure (you can really nicely compare this by shooting an old S2 a digital M, a modern Nikon DSLR and then a camera like a Nikon F3 or a Leica M6 and those old film cameras will truly shine - true life view, no delay whatsoever).

 

OVF all the way! You see a pattern here ? ;-)

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[tom0511]

I once had the same problem with a S2 (slight missalignment of focusing screen) and found it quite irritating. Leica calibrated it for me and afterwards it was fine.

For my S006 and S007 I didnt have such problem.

I think when paying such amount for a camera the optical finder and screen should both be alligned 100%, otherwise I would send it to Leica and let them fix it.