Tailwagger Posted August 12, 2016 Share #1041 Posted August 12, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) To honest I don't see much advantage to a dedicated ISO dial. I'm fine with the current setup. I'd much prefer that real estate was devoted to a dedicated EV dial, something I change far more often. I find having to constantly remember to check EV for inadvertent bumps is a bit of a pain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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jaapv Posted August 12, 2016 Share #1042 Posted August 12, 2016 I never use EV compensation - it is much easier to go to manual. It might solve your problem... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 12, 2016 Share #1043 Posted August 12, 2016 EV comp is a pain with the M240 but manual is too slow for me. Modern cameras allow for immediate AE comp w/o having to chimp or take the eye away from the finder. Why not Leica? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1044 Posted August 13, 2016 It cannot be all ... then I am in the market for a Sony :-( It shoud have a new EVF at least. Only question is an hybrid or separate one. I would guess separate but i have no info so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1045 Posted August 13, 2016 EV comp is a pain with the M240 but manual is too slow for me. Modern cameras allow for immediate AE comp w/o having to chimp or take the eye away from the finder. Why not Leica? Slow? It must be user habit - I tend to use it like an M6+motor, and nobody ever accused an M6 for being slow. Anyway, EV comp is guessing. Manual and measuring technique is knowing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1046 Posted August 13, 2016 Manual and measuring is waiting. My M6J was a (nice) turtle compared to modern cameras. EV comp is knowing because you see immediately how it looks in the EVF. Difficult to achieve with an RF for sure but i expect the new M's EVF to reach the level of three years old current cameras hopefully. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1047 Posted August 13, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Slow? It must be user habit - I tend to use it like an M6+motor, and nobody ever accused an M6 for being slow. Anyway, EV comp is guessing. Manual and measuring technique is knowing. No it isn't. I *know* I need about 1.5 stops of exposure for backlit subjects. I *know* the palm of my hand is one stop above average exposure. I *know* my metering needs to be under about a stop for darker skin and over by the same for lighter skin. I *know* green grass is about neutral exposure. Because I know how my meter reacts in different circumstances and because I know how my subjects differ from a *normal* exposure I am able to make educated decisions regarding exposure values by setting my ISO, aperture and exposure compensation. No guessing required. Choosing to take a light measurement and set a manual value takes absolutely no more skill than setting an exposure with aperture priority and exposure compensation. Both require a photographer to understand how a particular subject or scene differ from the meter value in exactly the same way. And I would suspect that many photographers who choose the speed of exposure compensation have absolutely no difficulty shooting in manual but choose to do so because it suits the way they choose to work with their camera. Statements that imply setting manual exposure is either more accurate or a more knowledgeable way of setting exposure than aperture or shutter priority and exposure compensation are rubbish. It's entirely down to the skill of the user to interpret the meter readings and apply adjustments as required. This doesn't change regardless of the metering mode one chooses. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1048 Posted August 13, 2016 I find exposure compensation very useful. In many cases automatic spot metering tells me part of the story. With exposure compensation I can add my two cents manually. Manual exposure dial is great, but it could be made faster if we could see the values in the OVF. Info in the OVF that I am underexposing or overexposing is fine. But I still want and need to know the value and the changes I am making without having to look at the dial. It would have been an easy firmware fix. But I have given up on that. Not in the market for a new Leica, but I still hope that the new model fixes this really silly bug and metering values will be shown in the OVF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Bedford Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1049 Posted August 13, 2016 Well said. I find fully manual exposure annoying on a Leica-style rangefinder. Just because I use auto-exposure lock doesn't mean I'm less technical. One of my slower metering techniques (but still fast enough anyway) is to look into the rangefinder, take a few measurements (say 250, 500, 125...) then choose the shutter speed that is likely to give me the right exposure, focus and compose and take the photo. This is exactly the same as manual exposure, just metering in a different way, and ultimately doesn't require me to spend time changing the shutter speed dial with my fingers. No it isn't. I *know* I need about 1.5 stops of exposure for backlit subjects. I *know* the palm of my hand is one stop above average exposure. I *know* my metering needs to be under about a stop for darker skin and over by the same for lighter skin. I *know* green grass is about neutral exposure. Because I know how my meter reacts in different circumstances and because I know how my subjects differ from a *normal* exposure I am able to make educated decisions regarding exposure values by setting my ISO, aperture and exposure compensation. No guessing required. Choosing to take a light measurement and set a manual value takes absolutely no more skill than setting an exposure with aperture priority and exposure compensation. Both require a photographer to understand how a particular subject or scene differ from the meter value in exactly the same way. And I would suspect that many photographers who choose the speed of exposure compensation have absolutely no difficulty shooting in manual but choose to do so because it suits the way they choose to work with their camera. Statements that imply setting manual exposure is either more accurate or a more knowledgeable way of setting exposure than aperture or shutter priority and exposure compensation are rubbish. It's entirely down to the skill of the user to interpret the meter readings and apply adjustments as required. This doesn't change regardless of the metering mode one chooses. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adli Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1050 Posted August 13, 2016 If one takes a closer look at what Leica Rumor actually says: 1: They believe a new camera is coming 2: It will have dedicated ISO dial 3: It will have larger screen 4: They don't know the rest Apart from the ISO dial, no big surprises here? A new camera is coming and we still don't know the spec. The Rumors site offers this... http://leicarumors.com/2016/08/12/first-rumors-about-the-next-leica-m-camera-dedicated-iso-wheel-and-bigger-lcd-screen.aspx/ Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1051 Posted August 13, 2016 No it isn't. I *know* I need about 1.5 stops of exposure for backlit subjects. I *know* the palm of my hand is one stop above average exposure. I *know* my metering needs to be under about a stop for darker skin and over by the same for lighter skin. I *know* green grass is about neutral exposure. Because I know how my meter reacts in different circumstances and because I know how my subjects differ from a *normal* exposure I am able to make educated decisions regarding exposure values by setting my ISO, aperture and exposure compensation. No guessing required. Choosing to take a light measurement and set a manual value takes absolutely no more skill than setting an exposure with aperture priority and exposure compensation. Both require a photographer to understand how a particular subject or scene differ from the meter value in exactly the same way. And I would suspect that many photographers who choose the speed of exposure compensation have absolutely no difficulty shooting in manual but choose to do so because it suits the way they choose to work with their camera. Statements that imply setting manual exposure is either more accurate or a more knowledgeable way of setting exposure than aperture or shutter priority and exposure compensation are rubbish. It's entirely down to the skill of the user to interpret the meter readings and apply adjustments as required. This doesn't change regardless of the metering mode one chooses. Gordon I still maintain that (spot) measuring and setting manually is more accurate than taking a blanket compensation that you know is sufficient in most circumstances. Whether such accuracy is necessary in digital or negative film photography is another matter. It was (is) certainly so for slide film. Whether one chooses the simpler method is of course the choice of the photographer. But measuring will always be more accurate than an estimate, no matter how skillful one is at estimating. Just as choosing to zone/scale focus instead of using the rangefinder is the photographer's choice. The discussion would be exactly the same. You would say many choose do so because they know exactly how far their subject is and I would say that the rangefinder is more accurate, if used properly. As for speed, we are talking about digital M cameras here. As long as they don't have a more sophisticated system of setting EV compensation, the fastest way is indeed to use manual. I agree with posters that there might be a better way of implementing the system, but it will always be a bit of a hassle on a camera that is basically a manual camera with some automation stuck on. That is the reason for my suggestion to use the manual setting instead of EV compensation in my original post, which was a reply o a poster who had legitimate concerns about the EV compensation on his M. That there are faster cameras on the market is incontestable. That has always been the case. A Robot was certainly faster than a Leica III f. Still the Leica was the preferred camera for reportage. How fast must it be? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1052 Posted August 13, 2016 I find exposure compensation very useful. In many cases automatic spot metering tells me part of the story. With exposure compensation I can add my two cents manually. Manual exposure dial is great, but it could be made faster if we could see the values in the OVF. Info in the OVF that I am underexposing or overexposing is fine. But I still want and need to know the value and the changes I am making without having to look at the dial. It would have been an easy firmware fix. But I have given up on that. Not in the market for a new Leica, but I still hope that the new model fixes this really silly bug and metering values will be shown in the OVF. Errr... The manual exposure has a (limited) indication of seeing the value of over-under exposure in the viewfinder; the arrows. Off=0 half-lit= 1/2 stop, fully lit=1 stop+. It has always been that way since 1983. It would be a better idea to show the actual shutterspeed in the viewfinder on manual. Now we have to count the clicks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1053 Posted August 13, 2016 If computer controlled manufacture took over and there were no retooling costs, molds to make, etc. would new cameras appear more frequently, would the manufacturers revenue increase? Could every customer have exactly what she wanted with no deleterious effect on profit; by which I mean she would buy a new one at the same frequency as before. Or would we each be stuck in a hole dug by the feebleness of our imaginations? Well, it would make forum life a lot easier, as any complaint about a (lacking) feature could be countered with: "you should have thought of that before you printed your individual camera" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1054 Posted August 13, 2016 I use most of the time automatic shutter with exposure compensation. But I also use manual depending on the situation. There's no point in being too fanatic about one way or the other. And showing the shutter speed in the viewfinder in manual mode would be a much more welcome improvement than a larger screen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tmuussoni Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1055 Posted August 13, 2016 I hope I am not alone on this one, but PLEASE have a real bulb mode. No silly 60 second limit (or 8 sec ISO 3200) and ability to disable long exposure noise reduction. I am sure the other improvements are well implemented anyway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1056 Posted August 13, 2016 I use most of the time automatic shutter with exposure compensation. But I also use manual depending on the situation. There's no point in being too fanatic about one way or the other. And showing the shutter speed in the viewfinder in manual mode would be a much more welcome improvement than a larger screen. I often use Auto and scan around the scene till I find the exposure I want, lock it in half-depressing the shutter button, recompose and shoot. For me it's faster than manual and/or EV compensation adjustment I so agree with you about the option of showing shutter speed in the viewfinder on Manual - I've been on about this for ages. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1057 Posted August 13, 2016 I hope I am not alone on this one, but PLEASE have a real bulb mode. No silly 60 second limit (or 8 sec ISO 3200) and ability to disable long exposure noise reduction. I am sure the other improvements are well implemented anyway +1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1058 Posted August 13, 2016 I often use Auto and scan around the scene till I find the exposure I want, lock it in half-depressing the shutter button, recompose and shoot. For me it's faster than manual and/or EV compensation adjustment I so agree with you about the option of showing shutter speed in the viewfinder on Manual - I've been on about this for ages. Exactly what I do, too... I find both fully manual and ex comp both too slow most of the time... and I 'lose' what I am doing... and I would never remember that the exp comp was already set - and then having to go through all that thought process... Nope. Measure a sensible area and go... fine exposure changes can be done in LR from the DNG anyway, so I'm confused as to why people worry about all of this so much... As long as you keep highlights in check its really not worth worrying about so much. I think a lot of people are stuck in the film days and translate far too much of the previous limitations that were necessary to overcome, into their digital shooting. Life is too short... There are millions of technically competent photographs out there... an interesting and memorable photograph is the only output worthy of any time, and there are far fewer of them around... I think in fifty years of photography I have maybe four or five photos of mine that I would consider truly memorable... and I'm judging those in terms of composition and subject. The camera or technique has long since faded away. Interestingly, they would have been on a Nikon F2 or a Spotmatic F and it was the way my brain worked in those days that made them interesting... today I seem to have become too 'conventional' in my thinking... even if I'm technically 'better'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1059 Posted August 13, 2016 I find exposure compensation useful as well, and find it a little clumsy to use on the M-D (it's easy on the M-P since I can set the thumbnail to work in "direct" mode ... just turn the dial and the EC is altered). So I work it this way for quick, single exposures: - focus - since I usually need to open up exposure by .3 to 1.0 EV, stop the lens down two clicks by turning the aperture ring - lock exposure by half pressing the shutter release and holding it there. - open the lens back up on to two clicks - frame my shot - release the shutter It's remarkably fast in use and works fine without moving to fully manual operation. If I know I am going to need an EC setting for a series of shots, I use the button and thumb wheel to set it. This is how I always worked with the Nikon F3 and FE2 when using auto exposure because their EC dials were difficult to operate too. I worked with those cameras for nearly twenty years with nary a complaint despite their many limitations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 13, 2016 Share #1060 Posted August 13, 2016 If one takes a closer look at what Leica Rumor actually says: 1: They believe a new camera is coming 2: It will have dedicated ISO dial 3: It will have larger screen 4: They don't know the rest Apart from the ISO dial, no big surprises here? A new camera is coming and we still don't know the spec. He expands in the comments section, writing this ... "There could be more improvements/changes - the two I reported in this post are based on a tip from somebody who spotted a test camera out in the wild." Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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