Adam Posted October 13, 2015 Share #61 Posted October 13, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...... and a 150 years worth of photographers have managed perfectly well without being able to move an AF focussing patch on a screen ....... and with 24mp you have plenty of room to crop anyway. .... as usual, add a seemingly unnecessary and previously unwanted facility to a camera and for a select few it becomes a 'deal breaker' and source of derisory comments when it's missing. The M series is complicated enough as it is ....... just leave what works well alone and make what it does better and faster ...... not engage in camera bloat to keep up with the competition ...... I agree. Did a test, what takes longer: A. move my M, focus and recompose, or B. press a button on an my D-lux to move the focus point whilst keeping composition, AF focus A is quicker, can be simpler to use, and can be more accurate. I think what makes M a great camera is that a lot of features that are prefixed by 'wouldn't it be cool to have..." are actually not there. The camera remains a relatively simple tool and that is why it is so effective. I vote to keep it that way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Hi Adam, Take a look here Next M Camera. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jdlaing Posted October 13, 2015 Share #62 Posted October 13, 2015 I am still sitting back thinking about this. It is impossible to move a focusing patch in a rangefinder camera. Live view or EVF, notwithstanding, the lens would have to communicate with the camera. Rangefinder don't work that way. And before somebody gets snooty it's a FOCUS POINT and not the focus patch. Still not possible in an analog focusing mechanism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramosa Posted October 13, 2015 Share #63 Posted October 13, 2015 If we take Leica at their word - "das Wesentliche", or the essentials, what is the defining characteristic of the M camera? manual focus lenses between 18mm & 135mm optical view finder aperture priority, to the extent there is any automation available light photography John, You nailed it on the head here. The problem with the M240--for me--was that it tried to please everyone and, thus, surely didn't please an "M-purist" like me. I don't need video or focus peaking or EVF or a super heavy battery. I don't want a censor geared toward high ISO at the expense of low ISO. With the expected release of the SL, the M doesn't need such broad aims anymore. Give me a new digital M no larger or heavier than the M9 (preferably like the M6). Give it the best censor available, one that shines at lower ISOs. (Yup, I can survive at ISO 400 with film and did equally well with the ISO "limitations" of the M8 and M9. It could even be a new CCD.) Give it an updated processor, buffer, LCD, and other "innards." That's it. Heck, take the M9, put in an updated CCD sensor, plus a quiet shutter and contemporary innards--and I'm good to go. Weather sealing would be a plus. The M240 has surely pleased many, but it pushed me back to film. -R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted October 13, 2015 Share #64 Posted October 13, 2015 John, You nailed it on the head here. The problem with the M240--for me--was that it tried to please everyone and, thus, surely didn't please an "M-purist" like me. I don't need video or focus peaking or EVF or a super heavy battery. I don't want a censor geared toward high ISO at the expense of low ISO. With the expected release of the SL, the M doesn't need such broad aims anymore. Give me a new digital M no larger or heavier than the M9 (preferably like the M6). Give it the best censor available, one that shines at lower ISOs. (Yup, I can survive at ISO 400 with film and did equally well with the ISO "limitations" of the M8 and M9. It could even be a new CCD.) Give it an updated processor, buffer, LCD, and other "innards." That's it. Heck, take the M9, put in an updated CCD sensor, plus a quiet shutter and contemporary innards--and I'm good to go. Weather sealing would be a plus. The M240 has surely pleased many, but it pushed me back to film. -R That's probably the shortest company suicide note in history. Yeah, let's chuck in an old noisy low refresh sensor, then degrade the battery, take out the useful video and make it worse at high ISO. Hell take out the EVF and ensure no R or telephoto lenses can be used. And focus peaking is the spawn of the devil, why should we help studio photographers. Seriously you should be shooting film and not let near a digital camera. Leica, please don't listen to him. Keep the control layout and simplicity but chuck as much innovation as you can at the sensor, video, battery, functionality, 4G (hint hint), as you want ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share #65 Posted October 14, 2015 Sounds like my M Edition 60 ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle123 Posted October 14, 2015 Share #66 Posted October 14, 2015 When are we going to get the announcement of what the new camera will be? Anyone know? It already "is what it is" and probably has been for years. If it's just another version of the M, I probably will pass a few years before upgrading. If it's a total new body, more like the T in feel and design, I might give it a whirl. But hope if that is the case they have it in black. The silver attracts attention! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramosa Posted October 14, 2015 Share #67 Posted October 14, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) That's probably the shortest company suicide note in history. Yeah, let's chuck in an old noisy low refresh sensor, then degrade the battery, take out the useful video and make it worse at high ISO. Hell take out the EVF and ensure no R or telephoto lenses can be used. And focus peaking is the spawn of the devil, why should we help studio photographers. Seriously you should be shooting film and not let near a digital camera. Leica, please don't listen to him. Keep the control layout and simplicity but chuck as much innovation as you can at the sensor, video, battery, functionality, 4G (hint hint), as you want ... Colonel: It seems you like to misinterpret comments to make counter arguments. I did not mention using an old sensor or degrading the battery or not being innovative. Pretty much all you got right was that I'd prefer if the camera didn't have all sorts of non-Das Wesentliche gizmos. In contrast, I called for a new sensor (perhaps one that doesn't only please folks who take photos in dark alleys, but also those who shoot primarily at lower ISOs). (Sensors haven't seen advances at lower ISOs since the M9. Like or not the m240, but its censor is certainly no better [perhaps even worse] at lower ISOs than that of the aged M9, which was released a long, long time ago when it comes to technology.) I did not suggest degrading the battery, but, instead, having one that didn't weigh so much that it boosts camera weight beyond the norm from M6-M9. (Ah, now that'd be innovative.) Moreover, I intimated the need for innovation in terms of having a contemporary sensor, processor, etc. Yes, I'd prefer if the camera were simple and without video and focus peaking (even 4g) (Das Wesentliche). If the camera had these functions (which I wouldn't use), their presence shouldn't be an excuse for a heavier camera (as was the case with the m240). What I recommended could be termed "digital Das Wesentliche." Such would be a suicide note for Leica? (Oh, the drama.) I doubt it, seeing how many lives Leica has had (e.g., M5, M8 increased IR sensitivity problem, M9 sensor corrosion, m240 color palette). Heck, Leica has even weathered releasing a camera named after a pseudo-rock star! A Das Wesentliche digital M would sell well and might even bring some tremendous photographers back into the Leica fold. Your comment about not letting me near a digital camera was quite smug. I have had and still have digital cameras, but also understand that those old film ones still take fine photos, too. Totsiens ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted October 14, 2015 Share #68 Posted October 14, 2015 On a lighter note: What is a pseudo rock? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joakim Posted October 14, 2015 Share #69 Posted October 14, 2015 A pebble with an attitude? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted October 15, 2015 Share #70 Posted October 15, 2015 I can't get past thinking what the price will be for any new M. The M246, here in Australia, retails for AUD $10,500. Assuming a new camera is North of that figure, yikes. I'm in Aus as well. On my dealer's website the list for the M (Typ 240) is some $2100+ cheaper than the Typ 246 at least. I'm guessing that the SL will be more though. The jury is out on whether that is intended to be an M replacement (not just usable with M lenses) though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 15, 2015 Share #71 Posted October 15, 2015 The jury is out on whether that is intended to be an M replacement (not just usable with M lenses) though. The only way to replace the current M would be by a new M. And if a new M should be imminent that would spell bad news for me – just when I thought the next issue of LFI was ready to go to the printers I have to do a write-up of a new M? Please say it isn’t so … Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share #72 Posted October 15, 2015 The only way to replace the current M would be by a new M. And if a new M should be imminent that would spell bad news for me – just when I thought the next issue of LFI was ready to go to the printers I have to do a write-up of a new M? Please say it isn’t so … Is it sitting on your desk? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted October 16, 2015 Share #73 Posted October 16, 2015 Hello Everybody, When thinking about both Barnack & film M Leicas there are certain things that seem to follow:With some exceptions, such as: Compur shutters on some Barnacks. A different range/viewfinder in an M3. And a different shutter coupled with a physically large meter mechanism in an M5: Leicas, both Barnack & M film, have generally been based on 1 basic body with a smaller number of reasonably related variants. With a number of different features which have sometimes been either upgradeable to or interchangeable from 1 model to the other. It would appear that the same type of philosophy might well be carried forward in the upcoming model. The new camera may be a mainstream model which does a number of things quite well but does not have all of the "Bells & Whistles" that some people might be expecting. More options to possibly come later. Best Regards, Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted October 16, 2015 Share #74 Posted October 16, 2015 Hello Everybody, To try to further clarify the problems of focusing on subjects relatively far off axis with wide angle lenses & then recomposing:John mentioned in his Post #41 above that Lars Bergquist has observed that: When a person focuses on a significantly off axis subject with a wide angle lens & then recomposes with that subject now at the edge of the photo: They have actually focused their lens too far away from the camera so that when they recompose & take the photo: Please Remember: Curved lens surfaces focus on & recreate flat image planes. NOT image planes that curve as you turn. There will be more depth of focus on the far side of the image plane than there would have been if the photographer had originally focused on a subject in that same image plane in the center of the final image. Because of this: Sometimes the intended subject may be out of focus. Best Regards, Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 16, 2015 Share #75 Posted October 16, 2015 Is it sitting on your desk? I wish I knew what the next M will be like but I have no idea. In fact the M system is the least of my concerns right now; Leica is keeping me busy even without any innovations on the M front. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted October 16, 2015 Share #76 Posted October 16, 2015 The only way to replace the current M would be by a new M. And if a new M should be imminent that would spell bad news for me – just when I thought the next issue of LFI was ready to go to the printers I have to do a write-up of a new M? Please say it isn’t so … Michael, I'm betting you won't need to wear out the M key on your keyboard just yet. On the other hand the S and the L..... Seems to me that somewhere along the way people made an assumption that the SL was intended to replace rather than complement the M. Now stop scaring me about an S with an EVF! I just received my LFI with your Typ 007 review by the way. Well done as always. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted October 16, 2015 Share #77 Posted October 16, 2015 In contrast, I called for a new sensor (perhaps one that doesn't only please folks who take photos in dark alleys, but also those who shoot primarily at lower ISOs). (Sensors haven't seen advances at lower ISOs since the M9. Like or not the m240, but its censor is certainly no better [perhaps even worse] at lower ISOs than that of the aged M9, which was released a long, long time ago when it comes to technology.) I did not suggest degrading the battery, but, instead, having one that didn't weigh so much that it boosts camera weight beyond the norm from M6-M9. (Ah, now that'd be innovative.) Moreover, I intimated the need for innovation in terms of having a contemporary sensor, processor, etc. Yes, I'd prefer if the camera were simple and without video and focus peaking (even 4g) (Das Wesentliche). If the camera had these functions (which I wouldn't use), their presence shouldn't be an excuse for a heavier camera (as was the case with the m240). What I recommended could be termed "digital Das Wesentliche." Such would be a suicide note for Leica? (Oh, the drama.) I doubt it, seeing how many lives Leica has had (e.g., M5, M8 increased IR sensitivity problem, M9 sensor corrosion, m240 color palette). Heck, Leica has even weathered releasing a camera named after a pseudo-rock star! A Das Wesentliche digital M would sell well and might even bring some tremendous photographers back into the Leica fold. ... I apologise if I was a bit dismissive. Basically my findings (bourne out by others I have read) is that the sensor of the M240 is 24mp and the M9 is 18mp. At base ISO the M240 is therefore empirically better. I would agree with you if the M240 had somehow inferior pixel level recording, but it doesn't. To my mind it's actually superior. It's just the colours are less weird which is what sometimes gave the M9 an ethereal look, particularly with greens, blues and cyan. I believe the result of Leica going more for Kodachrome rather then natural colours with the design of that camera. In terms of the battery I am afraid that is wishful thinking. Current battery technology is power proportional to size. If manufacturers could make smaller batteries with lower power surely they would all be doing it. Wanting to "use up a life" of Leica just to develop a camera significantly behind the times with its core components and as Leicas flagship offering seems very risky, and past analysis would show this isn't a good idea. Listen I get where you are coming for. You want simplicity and to concentrate on the basis for stills. Me too, in fact that is why everyone who likes the M likes it. I guess the "simplicity line" is just drawn differently between us. I am all for Leica making special editions or limited runs for specialist tastes, and in fact the M-E line was intended to be the absolute basics and sold quite well. Another example is the M60, a great idea and I applaud it, even though it doesn't appeal to me. Leica is unique in the entire camera world for doing limited runs for different tastes. Long may it continue. But IMHO the core M should have the latest best compromise on sensor and other core components, eg. battery, available at the time of design. With of course the standard Leica quirks thrown in, which we all adore Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-ph- Posted October 16, 2015 Share #78 Posted October 16, 2015 In terms of the battery I am afraid that is wishful thinking. Current battery technology is power proportional to size. If manufacturers could make smaller batteries with lower power surely they would all be doing it. I think the battery of the Q is the optimal size for a M camera. While having somewhat more capacity (and especially voltage!) than the M8/9 battery, it's way smaller than the M (240) one, and still large enough to power an AF camera with electronic viewfinder (so the Q should rather use more power than the M). The current M battery in my eyes is just too large for the typical uses of an M. I never leave the house without a spare battery, yet even with the M9 I rarely need it. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 16, 2015 Share #79 Posted October 16, 2015 Not sure what typical uses of an M can be but i would not want a weaker battery personally. YMMV. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewDD Posted October 16, 2015 Share #80 Posted October 16, 2015 Sounds like my M Edition 60 ... Which were pretty much unsellable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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