IkarusJohn Posted October 17, 2015 Share #141 Posted October 17, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) But, slow with live view on is slow. The criticism is valid when other live view cameras are not as slow, and similarly criticism of the speed compared to just using the optical view finder is valid - you may excuse it, but the criticism by others is not unreasonable. Ill try try to find a nice picture to post, if that will make my opinion worthwhile. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 17, 2015 Posted October 17, 2015 Hi IkarusJohn, Take a look here Quality is good, but speed is more important.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
LocalHero1953 Posted October 17, 2015 Share #142 Posted October 17, 2015 This tetchy thread can only be explained and understood by recognising: (i) that different people have different styles of photography. What works for me does not work for you and vice versa (and what's wrong with that?) (ii) that there is sample variation within the M. I don't use LV - I have a near 2 sec delay from start up or wake up. I have done all the right things with SD cards and formatting. Clearly some others have different experience. These things are facts. My opinion is that this is not good enough for me. My opinion is also that the M is the best camera I could have at the moment, but I would like it better. My opinion is also that I have missed photographs as a result of this performance. Not many, but enough to wish for better. BTW I don't post here. I post on FB and on my own website, which can be seen from from my signature below. And I missed none of the shots shown there as a result of the M's delays Edit: But I have an Olympus OMD EM5-ii which has an excellent EVF, and minimal delay using LV/EVF. So it can be done (though I realise the EM5 is a much later generation). But there are too many negative aspects to that camera to see it as a true alternative. It takes the photos I ask it to, that the M cannot (AF, silent shutter), but is not a a replacement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted October 17, 2015 Share #143 Posted October 17, 2015 Ill try try to find a nice picture to post, if that will make my opinion worthwhile. Now you are deliberately misrepresenting this entire discussion in order to continue with your only means of negating my opinion. Looking through other threads this evening it is clear you are in a particularly cantankerous mood. @LocalHero, are you back early November? It would be good to meet up to compare our two cameras. There may be sample variation, or it could be that quite simply, what bothers you doesn't particularly bother me. Of course we would all like better performance from anything we own. At the present moment in time, my camera isn't the limiting factor in the results I get, I am. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 17, 2015 Share #144 Posted October 17, 2015 No, Bill. I'm not misrepresenting you at all. I'm pointing out your complete lack of respect, and I am certainly sticking very firmly to the topic of speed. I dont have have the same issues with the M Edition 60, well not all the time. There are times I bring the camera up, the frame lines are on, but nothing happens when I push the button. Conversely, you post what, exactly? The criticism is unfair? People posting criticism haven't put up good pictures? I am quoting you ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted October 17, 2015 Share #145 Posted October 17, 2015 Live view being slow is irrelevant as its not the reason people buy this camera to use as such. Additionally every DSLR I have used has slower LV Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted October 17, 2015 Share #146 Posted October 17, 2015 Neither of which I have said... Which you well know. I suggest you re-read the last posts and if you feel that I have said either of those two things, quote me verbatim. I don't have issues with speed due to the way I use my camera. Others may find differently, even if using it the same way. My point is that these are not absolutes. They are opinion. I just object to people thinking their opinion is truth for all. It's just truth for them. To think any other way is simply arrogant, by any definition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 17, 2015 Share #147 Posted October 17, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Man, am I getting tired of this thread! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 17, 2015 Share #148 Posted October 17, 2015 I'm with Lou. Later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyalf Posted October 18, 2015 Author Share #149 Posted October 18, 2015 -- I think there are a number of people on here who seem to be unhappy unless they have something to complain about. If the camera doesn't suit the way you photograph, buy another camera. I moved from Nikon, not for additional functionality, but to return to basics. Interestingly, many of these same people are conspicuously absent from any of the photo sections or gallery. This seems to be a classical attempt to cloud the discussion. Also I might add I find it rude and offensive. Its interesting to see that many actually state that it cannot be anything wrong with equipment, so it must be something wrong with persons. And in the same manner state that one should buy something else rather than propose and discuss improvements in a civil manner. Furthermore since you are quoting me I assume that you include me in the group "conspicuously absent from any of the photo sections or gallery". May I suggest that you do a search of my content here and elsewhere before you accuse? Also even though contributors in this thread were "conspicuously absent from any of the photo sections or gallery" would this reduce the weight of arguments? Is it now so that the numbers of photos posted is the criteria of witch to judge arguments? Please feel free to discuss the topic rather than insult those that does not subscribe to your world view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted October 18, 2015 Share #150 Posted October 18, 2015 As far as offensive is concerned, I suggest you look at your post 134 along with your last post. Totally unnecessary. Some people have issues with some elements of their cameras, others don't. If you read my comments in the thread, both prior and post you comments, you will see that I have always said, that to me, the additional functionality of the M camera is a bonus, not the core reason I bought it, so if it is lacking in any way compared to the competition, on that additional functionality, to me, it isn't an issue... Because if those additional elements were truly critical, I would have bought an alternative camera. Go back and read the entire thread if you like... There is NO clouding of the discussion. When that personal opinion becomes offensive as it was in your post 134, then you deserve to be called out on it... And any protestations you may make towards me regarding this will fall on (my) deaf ears. Finally, like IkarusJohn before you, you choose to make some comment that I suggested that if people on here were great photographers, then they would have a more valid opinion.....??? That is, like IkarusJohn, YOUR attempt to cloud the issue. It wasn't what I said AT ALL - read it again. I simply made the observation that most of the people that spend time criticising theirs, and others, equipment, in the main, seem to be absent from the photo sections of the forums. Meaning, that there are some that take photos and enjoy that part of the forum, and some who like to talk about the gear. That was all... I wasn't mentioning anyone in particular and it certainly didn't suggest you need to be an excellent photographer before you are entitled to comment... Which is the nonsense Ikarus John tried to foist onto this discussion... And now you are attempting to do it... Seems to me you are both trying to cloud the issues... and then make accusations about arrogance or being disrespectful. Unfortunately there are one or two people on here who seem to think it is ok to bully others with their opinion, but if called out on it, accuse those same people of being disrespectful... To whom? The forum? I don't think so... Respect is something earned. You cannot demand it. Most of us on here have had the good fortune to have had a reasonably successful life and are reasonably well travelled... so our starting point should be one of mutual respect. Where it goes from there is determined by our own behaviour... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted October 18, 2015 Share #151 Posted October 18, 2015 Its far from obvious since the development from M9 to M240 was to make it slower for some performance indicators, among them start-up time. I only had that issue using some SD card that I can't remember. Now I use SanDisk 64gb Extreme Pro cards 95mb/s and the startup time is fast enough that when I turn it on, by the time I have raised it to my eye and composed the shot it's ready. I never had a miss due to power time, but I don't shoot action or sports, either. Well, I shot our local autocross, but didn't have a problem there, either. Now the internal processor speed is another matter and prohibits using a faster EVF, but the M9 never had that option to begin with. I'd rather have higher ISO than startup speed. Oh! I would love a built in adjustable diopter for the viewfinder. Maybe even a larger viewfinder, too. If you condemn a product because one attribute isn't an improvement from the previous iteration, which I am not sure is the case with the M 240 over the M9, then you might be missing the bigger picture (no pun intended). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 18, 2015 Share #152 Posted October 18, 2015 Most manufacturer sites and others have sections for posting photos. However, it seems that gear talk mainly over shadows photo sections which is why we bought the gear in the first place. I am as guilty as the next guy in talking too much about gear versus talking about the artistic aspects of image creation. It seems now with new gear coming out every month of the year as opposed to mainly being announced during large Photo expositions, we now have taken the direction of being gear heads & internet readers instead of photographers. That's it--the internet is to blame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 18, 2015 Share #153 Posted October 18, 2015 I only had that issue using some SD card that I can't remember. Now I use SanDisk 64gb Extreme Pro cards 95mb/s and the startup time is fast enough that when I turn it on, by the time I have raised it to my eye and composed the shot it's ready. I never had a miss due to power time, but I don't shoot action or sports, either. Well, I shot our local autocross, but didn't have a problem there, either... Well i will introduce my grandchildren to you and you will see how fun things can be when pressing the shutter release doesn't trigger anything... Anyway this topic has been beaten to death on the LUF already. Startup times of the M8 are never longer than one second actually vs two seconds or a bit less for the M240, which is hardly an improvement. We were not informed of this slowness when we ordered the M240 in 2012 because Leica claimed its startup times were "< 1s" which never proved to be true. One second is only possible with old SD cards actually but no SDHC card is capable of less than 1.7s according to my own tests at least. In a second iteration of Leica specs "< 1s" became "approx. 1s" which was more honest but this second version is not available anymore and we remain with the first one and its ridiculous "< 1s". This said, the M240 is at the end as its commercial life now so let's hope that Leica will recall that M bodies used to be the cameras of the decisive moment in a glorious past... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted October 18, 2015 Share #154 Posted October 18, 2015 @LocalHero, are you back early November? It would be good to meet up to compare our two cameras. PMd you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted October 18, 2015 Share #155 Posted October 18, 2015 The M240 is super fast. What I switch it on I take a picture. It's absolutely nonsense to say it's slow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 18, 2015 Share #156 Posted October 18, 2015 Okay, Bill. If you're going to keep dragging me into this, I will respond. The issue raised was Thorsten's article that for his style of photography, the camera is slow. I don't know if you follow Thorsten at all, but he moves reasonably quickly - capturing pictures reasonably spontaneously is his style. He takes the lens caps off his lenses, hoods on and he leaves his camera turned on. I don't think EVF is his thing. I recall posting on this somewhere earlier in this thread. Others point out that live view and the EVF also are slow to wake up. I commented that with the M Edition 60, sometimes the camera also takes a while to wake up - not every time, but it happens. I tend to turn off the camera between shots and I find that startup is more consistent. Now, consider those reasoned comments from respected members of this forum and re-read the highlighted parts of your entire post below. I wish people would stop this misleading nonsense. The M240 is every bit as quick as the M9 when used the same way. The start up time is only extended if you use live view all the time, which most of us don't, unless we deliberately choose to due to the needs of the moment.It's the same with whomever it is who talks about shutter delay. Again, there is none, unless, once again, you use live view and metering has changed from classic to reading off the sensor. Even then, it's a moot point.If you use it the way each of these additions is intended, you should have no issues with slowness. Who would use live view when street shooting or capturing sequences quickly. If those are your requirements, and they are perfectly valid requirements, use something more suitable. I suspect these same people would never moan about their 911 not being particularly suitable for a camping or a fishing trip... or a family day out with the kids and grandparents...I think there are a number of people on here who seem to be unhappy unless they have something to complain about. If the camera doesn't suit the way you photograph, buy another camera. I moved from Nikon, not for additional functionality, but to return to basics.Interestingly, many of these same people are conspicuously absent from any of the photo sections or gallery. It seems to me that no one is misrepresenting what you are saying. You are very clear. No clouding the issue in the responses you've received. No arrogance in the disagreement. I dont have live view. As you say, I of all people know that; there is therefore a start up problem unrelated to live view. I'm no expert, but I'm guessing it has something to do with either the processor or the firmware. And telling people that if they use live view and the EVF, accept that it's slow or use another camera system is very "unhelpful". Why should people just accept that? Comparing the M(240) to the M9, and saying people who complain don't post pictures here is "clouding the issue." This isn't about the M9. It's about the M(240). To use your highly scornful 911 analogy, the 2015 DVT version of the Ducati Multistrada is marketed to have an uplift in hp and to be smoother. However, riders have discovered that there is a huge flat spot in the power curve if you drop the hammer at 35mph in second gear. Rightly, buyers are unhappy - saying it's faster than the 2013/2014 version isn't the point. Respect and personal abuse doesn't come into. I and a number of others here disagree with what you're saying and the way you chose to say it. I agree that respect is earned, but it does not follow that you be disrespectful to everyone else. Now, please leave me out of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted October 18, 2015 Share #157 Posted October 18, 2015 Speed more important than quality. I mentioned the title of this thread to a friend and he said, "I hope that does not carry into his love life." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted October 18, 2015 Share #158 Posted October 18, 2015 Just to put all this into perspective, the original quote had absolutely nothing to do with the speed of the M240. It was from an article about the use of the R system and pro photographers... it was a quote taken out of context and then used as an argument by the original poster to support his contention of the 'slowness' of the M camera on start up... If you read Thorstens article on the M he suggests a menu set up that allows the M to be ready 'within a second or so'... In fact, it was from this article I changed my own set up and followed the advice. Since then, I've been happy... It takes me a second or so to raise the camera to my eye and frame, a little longer after that to focus... My camera is always ready before I am. Would I like it faster? Hell yes! We wouldn't have these stupid arguments then... and it would be one thing less for anyone to complain about. Anyway, to return to the point and the ACTUAL quote and context... It's from an article on the Type 601 and is a historical note regarding acceptance of the R system with regard to pro users... Here is the original... "The Leica R system just never made it to become SLR cameras in the sense of speed and reliability that a professional users wanted. Quality is good, but speed is more important. That was the reality in the periods where Nikon and Canon shifted positions in the SLR market every time one of them came up with faster speed of the film forward and the auto focus. And when digital came about, the two major brands Nikon and Canon shifted position again and again whenever one of them came out with faster ISO or faster buffer and auto focus. It is ridiculous to keep ones stand on quality first in a world obsessed with speed. To illustrate this, when the Canon 1Ds was what many photojournalist would carry around, they would almost never use the RAW format or the full resolution the cameras offered. Instead they would shoot JPG files in smaller size; because that is what is the fastest to review and send off to the newspaper, television station or website. So they never utilized the possible quality or real power of those cameras. Which explains also why they never desired or missed what Leica R had to offer". Thorsten Overgaard If you want to learn more about how Thorsten has his M cameras ready, quickly, read the actual M240 article... you will find his comments far more in line with mine. Here is the excerpt that I believe is pertinent to this discussion... This is from page 30 of the M review. The 'speed is more important' comment is nowhere to be found of course, as it had nothing to do with the M240 at all... "My camera is always on. In the suggested Menu settings you can see I have the camera to power off after two minutes and the preview is 1 second. This will make the camera battery last for a day, easily. When I enter a room or see something at a distance that might be an image, I will slightly touch the shutter release. This wakes up the camera so it is ready when I need it. Witht he SanDisk 64GB 95MB/sec card the wakeup time for camera and EVF2 is a little more than 1 second. With other cards (including the 32GB version of the 95MB/sec card, the wakeup time can be 3 seconds or slower). With the Leica M 240 you will spend some time on the Live View and the EVF2 electronic viewfinder: Is LV on, and is it showing the image on the preview screen or the EVF2? It shows the image where it did last time the camera was active. And if on the screen, you have to press the button on the EVF2 to get it there instead. Or press the button on the EVF2 again to get LV off. You see the confusion, right? But when I got that sorted out, the camera and the EVF2 is ready after a second or so after I touched the shutter release" Thorsten Overgaard Thorsten gives good advice. Advice I have followed and my experience bears out his suggestions... Maybe I have overreacted to the misrepresentation of the article and some of the comments, and for that I apologise to other readers. If others find the camera too slow, I suggest they try Thorstens suggestions and report back, if there is a doubt about the consistency of results while doing this, then I am more than happy to sit with someone with a 240 and actually try it out compared to my camera... All I will say though, is my camera behaves exactly as Thorsten reports in his article... Now, bearing this all in mind, perhaps you would like to review the second paragraph in your reply number 156...? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted October 19, 2015 Share #159 Posted October 19, 2015 Doh! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/250950-quality-is-good-but-speed-is-more-important/?do=findComment&comment=2907223'>More sharing options...
250swb Posted October 19, 2015 Share #160 Posted October 19, 2015 Quality is good, but speed is more important. Period. After the SLR became easily available from the likes of Nikon and Pentax rangefinder photography exemplified by Leica found it's niche in speed. But speed is nothing without anticipation, look at the work of Bresson, he didn't wait for something to happen, otherwise he'd have missed it even with a modern DSLR. So in anticipation of wanting to take a snap switch the camera on sooner. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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