Quality is good, but speed is more important.

[IkarusJohn]

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Thanks for the clarification, Douglas. I just had a Pythonesque vision of you walking down the street with an M camera glued to your face 

 

I should add that, while many here say that the M Edition 60 is just a repackaged M(240), as the camera has no live view and no sleep settings, I haven't noticed a wake up lag at all. Other issues, yes; but no wake up lag. Unlike Thorsten, I do use lens caps (they come off when I take my camera out of the bag) and I don't leave my camera turned on all the time - when I do that, there's no lag; the camera is dead. 

Edited October 5, 2015 by IkarusJohn

[Peter Kilmister]

Oi Ikarus, see my post #6 !!

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[thighslapper]

I've been banging on about this for years ....... Leica has always been lagging in processor power.

 

The M replacement will use the Maestro 2 processor or derivatives and have comparable or better performance speed wise than the Q.

 

If you have tried a Q ....... minimal lag between shots on the EVF and generally zippy all round .... then you will have an idea of things to come.

 

Leica may be slow on the uptake, but they are not deaf and the M9/M240 sluggish performance WILL vanish in the next iteration of the series. 

[LocalHero1953]

....... the M9/M240 sluggish performance WILL vanish in the next iteration of the series. 

Oddly, I don't remember start/wake up time being an issue with the M9, but mine went in part exchange for the M, so I can't check.

It made me wonder what the M was doing in those 2 secs that the M9 didn't do.

[pgk]

"Quality is good but speed is more important" as a title is obviously going to provoke reaction. Its an opinion based on specific requirements (and nothing whatsoever to do with pro/amateur status as some seem to think). For those of use who don't need instantaneous response, then the opinion is incorrect and to a large extent irrelevant (though obviously highly relevant to Thorsten). For those who do need fast response then it obviously is important. My guess is that there are far fewer photographers in the latter category (requiring instant wake-up) and probably fewer still to whom the issue is truly relevant (if they are being really honest with themselves - we all apparently crave performance 'just in case' but may never genuinely use it.

 

Speaking for myself I would say that the familiarity of the M type camera, its lenses and size are of far greater importance than a slowish start up. I can't remember missing a shot due to slow start up on a Leica RF camera, but I have missed shots on dSLRs due to their complex interface and the need to access menus to change settings in a hurry - simplicity in operation is to me a far more important attribute of a camera than its start up time.

 

FWIW a film camera that's not wound on or has been accidentally fired is as capable of missing a shot as any other - ensuring instantaneous readiness is nothing new and has always been problematic.

[IkarusJohn]

Oi Ikarus, see my post #6 !!

 

The one where you say "What a load of picky fuss over seconds."  I wasn't going to single you out, but now that you've outed yourself, I'd say, what a lot of tosh!

 

PGK nails it - the lag is not a problem for most here, but it is a problem. If you don't see an image unfolding, raise your camera and nail it, then I suggest you read HCB's Decisive Moment. Might not affect you, and it hasn't me (more often than forgetting to turn the camera on at all), but picky fuss it isn't. 

 

Oh, I get it - you were the first to refer to Python, so no one else can?  Okay - Douglas, we think you look like John Cleese walking about with your camera at your face ready for that once in a life time shot. pkilmister said it first at #6   

Edited October 5, 2015 by IkarusJohn

[AlanJW]

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There is much talk here about the delay in digital vs. analog.   But we're all human.  I cannot tell you the number of times when I was using film I missed a shot because I had not advanced the film.   Yes, I know you're supposed to do that after each shot.   Then of course the second or two between shots winding (talking about a Leica here, not some motorized machine gun) also caused the loss of shots that would not be lost in digital.

It is all up to that flawed human behind the camera to figure out how to get ready, no matter what equipment is being used.

[pico]

I'm surprised that no one has complained by the few shots per-second.

[Peter Kilmister]

@: IkarusJohn, You missed the whole point of the at the end of my post. Irony completely missed. Maybe you are too young to remember, but beware of the Spanish Inquisition!

 

Yes I did challenge making a comment about being picky over seconds. It was based on good sense. Everything digital or electronic that I turn on seems to have start-up lag. Maybe it is the valves warming up?

 

Please don't get personal.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

With careful card selection I have got my start up time to be about a second. The M doesn't collapse in a pile with certain cards like my M9 but it is fussy. And I still haven't worked out what it likes. I have some very expensive fast cards the M hates and some it likes. I've used SDformatter. Right now I have a pair of 16GB Lexar cards that start up quicker than most of the cards I own so they stay in the M. I try each new card as I aquire it to see if it's an M card or not.

 

One function in any digital camera I dislike is the sleep function. I know it's terribly useful to some but I don't like having two ways to turn my camera on. When I reach for the camera I don't want to have to remember if the camera is off or asleep. That's actually what would slow me down. I want one thing to do that I always do and that's it.

 

Early into my XPan experimentation I started turning the camera on as I raised it and off as I lowered it. I still do that now and it's pretty much muscle memory. As I reach for my camera I instinctively push the selector to on. I hardly even register I'm doing it. That has carried over to my use of the M9 and M. It's also meant that I've been able to maximise battery life on the M9 and I don't end up with flat batteries in the bag because something is touching the shutter button. I was far slowerr with my Canons because Canon don't know where to put a power switch and occasionally move it between models.

 

I do wish the start up were faster, although I won't be changing my system. I have other cameras that are the same but with the added bonus of terrible battery life (hello Fuji and Sony). Like every system. There are compromises to be worked around.

 

Gordon 

[IkarusJohn]

@: IkarusJohn, You missed the whole point of the at the end of my post. Irony completely missed. Maybe you are too young to remember, but beware of the Spanish Inquisition!

 

Yes I did challenge making a comment about being picky over seconds. It was based on good sense. Everything digital or electronic that I turn on seems to have start-up lag. Maybe it is the valves warming up?

 

Please don't get personal.

 

No, I'm not too young; irony? We don't get that much round here (now, quiz for you - who said that?); if I was getting personal, I would be making personal comments about you, rather than just criticising your posts. I am allowed to criticise your posts?  Don't take it personally. 

[flyalf]

No, the start-up lag of Leica M is not a digital or electronic problem. Its bad design.  Compare the start-up time of Leica with Nikon DSLR. I came from a D700, and it started up in aprox 0,4s. It was always ready before I was. Check the buffer clearing times.

 

If you are ok with speed of M, fine. But don't throw in smoke grenades to hide weaknesses that are in the open.

[AlanJW]

No, the start-up lag of Leica M is not a digital or electronic problem. Its bad design.  Compare the start-up time of Leica with Nikon DSLR. I came from a D700, and it started up in aprox 0,4s. It was always ready before I was. Check the buffer clearing times.

 

If you are ok with speed of M, fine. But don't throw in smoke grenades to hide weaknesses that are in the open.

The Leica M processor has many deficiencies more serious than a difference of 1/2 to 3/4 of a second starting up.   I have bought a lot of cameras in my life and not once was the determining factor how long it took to turn on.   More important was whether the camera turned ME on.  If a Leica M is too slow for someone to use in street shooting, then by all means use something else.   

[jdlaing]

It's not a weakness. It's a feature.

[Adam]

No, the start-up lag of Leica M is not a digital or electronic problem. Its bad design.  Compare the start-up time of Leica with Nikon DSLR. I came from a D700, and it started up in aprox 0,4s. It was always ready before I was. Check the buffer clearing times.

 

If you are ok with speed of M, fine. But don't throw in smoke grenades to hide weaknesses that are in the open.

 

We have no idea what constraints the designers were working on when designing the M240. It could be that 1-2 sec startup is a trade off for something  the designers decided was worth having. After all, we can purchase a 'cheap' accessory that guarantees fast startup times.

 

 Comparing the M 240 with a DSLR as far as function is one thing, but comparing them as far as form is another. It is a fallacy to assume you can just copy DSLR electronics into a smaller mirror-less design.

[Peter Kilmister]

@IkarusJohn: Because of a problem with Win 10 and this website I can't use quotes. As far as I can remember that was a quote from Ronnie Barker and may have been nicked by Cleese for an episode of Fawlty Towers. I'm off to bed so don't have time to scratch my head for too long.

Anyway no bad blood. Pax, as the Romans used to say.

 

I just get fed up with constant negative comments about what I consider to be an engineering work of art. The M240 and its variants is an amazing piece of kit. OK, the electronics might need some more firmware tuning, but is what's the the best way to achieve this? Bleating? Constructive comment?

 

Over to you ... you've been around longer than me.

[ramosa]

I hope that, with the release of the SL, folks who care about speed and video and focus peaking and EVFs and R-lens adaptability can use that camera--and the M can return to being an M like all M cameras before the M 240.

[dot-me-not]

The sole reason I'm still shooting film Ms is because of digital lag. I want the click when I want the click. Otherwise, what's the point?

Edited October 6, 2015 by dot-me-not

[zlatkob]

From http://overgaard.dk/Leica-Camera-Typ-601.html.

 

I find it a well written and informative history lesson. I also agree on the observation made by Thorstein as seen from pros "Quality is good, but speed is more important.l". Imo this is THE weakness of the digital Ms. Their slow and sluggish compared to SLRs. The start-up time allows the photographer to miss the decisive moments. The response time from pressing the shutter until capturing is behind DSLRS even though it ought to be shorter. And so on with regards to buffer and similar.

 

So this raise two absolute critical questions; will Leica improve the M, and will Leica improve this on coming SL? Perhaps Q can point to some answers. Is the start-up time noticeable by user. If so its not good enough, and Leica will have to improve.

 

What's missing in that lesson is a consideration of cost.  Yes, pros value speed and reliability, but they also value affordability.  And that applies especially to photojournalists.  Multi-thousand dollar differences in equipment costs weigh more heavily on them than a second or two in startup time.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pico]

To be facetious: Keep the camera alive (an extra battery is cheap) and  keep it in continuous mode and hit it as you raise it to shoot.

 

Come on, if you can afford a Leica, why act as if you cannot take advantage of the options?

 

And you manual film Leica users, just shut-up and let these spoiled digital mavens work it out.

Edited October 6, 2015 by pico