lct Posted October 9, 2015 Share #121 Posted October 9, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) OK but it is a Leica we're talking about. Remember HCB, Cappa, the decisive moment and so forth. When i tested a dozen cards one or two years ago, i got an average startup time of 2 seconds on the M240 vs 1 second on my M8.2 and zero something second on my old 5D. Same for wakeup times more or less. 2 seconds is simply 1 second too long that's all. I mean in classic mode of course as in LV mode, the M240 borders the ridiculous and it is an understatement... I may like both Porsche and Cadillac cars but i don't purchase a 911 to get the behavior of a Fleetwood Eldorado... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Hi lct, Take a look here Quality is good, but speed is more important.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
colonel Posted October 9, 2015 Share #122 Posted October 9, 2015 But Colonel, both startup and wakeup times are slow and it is the problem here. I too switch the camera off between shootings and i miss usually the first shot when i'm in a hurry because when i press the shutter release nothing happens. Some of us, including beta testers, have been drawing Leica's attention on the issue since 2013, to no avail so far. I am afraid I simply don't find this. Maybe there is an issue with your camera ? Maybe your SD card has an issue ? If you take files off on an Apple Mac without reformatting it leaves loads of .X files around which foul many camera's startup times. If I switch the camera on and immediately press the shutter release it doesn't work. I have to wait a few micro seconds. This is the case with most cameras I have used. Just looking at the menu, you can switch off auto-power-off or set it to 10mins. So this seems a good idea on walkabout if you want to keep the camera switch on. The M240 battery is certainly man enough to take this for a day, even if you need one spare. I will however continue to switch off the camera between sequences. Even my M7, A7, etc. I switch off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 9, 2015 Share #123 Posted October 9, 2015 Oh Colonel, i've been one of the first to draw the LUF's attention on the issue here. Not sure if Thorsten was born then . Just kidding Thorsten. My M240 works perfectly. I've learned to use it since 2013 and my results are available. There is little else i can say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted October 9, 2015 Share #124 Posted October 9, 2015 Well hopefully Leica will release a firmware that addresses your concerns. In the meantime leaving auto-power off would appear to work during the shooting day ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Lss- Posted October 9, 2015 Share #125 Posted October 9, 2015 We've all been there before, except with the M(240) you release the shutter and nothing happens. You pound the shutter release to no avail and the shot is gone. Why? Because the damn camera went to sleep and took too long to wake up. Now, you might say press the shutter lightly 3 seconds before you try to take the shot - that's true, but not instinctive if you're used to other cameras which are quicker on wake-up, and sometimes, you want that shot right now - that's why you keep the damn camera turned on. I don't own the M typ 240 (an M8 here), but this is exactly what I instinctively do with every camera (actually even film cameras). I haven't used a digital camera so far that is quick enough to wake up, which is why I keep waking them up prior to shooting without thinking about it. Now, obviously this doesn't mean that speed isn't important. It's paramount. But I would be surprised to find out the M is too slow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 9, 2015 Share #126 Posted October 9, 2015 Well hopefully Leica will release a firmware that addresses your concerns. In the meantime leaving auto-power off would appear to work during the shooting day ..... That's what i discovered two years ago but i still miss the first shot from to time... No firmware update will fix the issue i'm afraid, it's too late now but the next M will be faster hopefully... Or i will become slower myself and the problem will be solved this way . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Lss- Posted October 9, 2015 Share #127 Posted October 9, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Who buys a manual focus camera with speed being their first priority???? It is kind of laughable. If that offends someone to say that, sorry. It is not personal. It's just one person's opinion and this is what forums are like. Speed is certainly a priority for me. It's one of the key reasons I use an M mount rangefinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 9, 2015 Share #128 Posted October 9, 2015 Actually, your scenario contains two show stoppers. Setting the distance takes rather more time than a short tap on the shutter release. If you want to call the M a slow machine, you could do so just as soon for the absence of an AF. And this does not even take into account that you might want to check your aperture and exposure time as well before shooting, as they might make or break an image, too. It seems that there are some people who are cozy with the feature set and user interface of the M and some are not. Also, for some speed is of the essence and for some not. Don't count me in that - my camera doesn't have a start up problem - at least, not one I notice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted October 9, 2015 Share #129 Posted October 9, 2015 I know I am a real amateur and this is not an amazing photo, but as an example yesterday, I saw these people, they saw me, I saw the poster, I thought cool photo, I switched on, lifted up the camera, took the picture, the next second they looked away ... I have never missed a shot with the M240. I have with other cameras .... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/250950-quality-is-good-but-speed-is-more-important/?do=findComment&comment=2901869'>More sharing options...
Belle123 Posted October 9, 2015 Share #130 Posted October 9, 2015 Colonel, Hadn't occurred to me might speed things up on the M with faster SD card. I have to try it now! I did so on the T which seemed to help but since speed has never been a problem on the M "for me" I will check this out, out of curiosity. See if it wakes up faster. Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJFlowers Posted October 17, 2015 Share #131 Posted October 17, 2015 I've never had a problem. By the time I see something I want to photograph it takes me a lot longer to get the camera to my eye than it does to switch it on (one click while it is being shifted to eye level). Please be realistic: If you walk around with the camera stuck to your eye then start up time might seem long ... but you will look like an idiot ... and you'll probably trip over a lot. Very Monty Python If it is on a strap around your torso then getting it to your eye takes ages and can be switched on at the same time. What a load of picky fuss over seconds. Totally agree...I've never missed a shot as my MP 240 slowly develops enough steam to work...If you are using your camera switch it on...carry an extra battery is you really are concerned over usage..... a Non issue in my real life experience... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 17, 2015 Share #132 Posted October 17, 2015 Colonel, Hadn't occurred to me might speed things up on the M with faster SD card. I have to try it now! I did so on the T which seemed to help but since speed has never been a problem on the M "for me" I will check this out, out of curiosity. See if it wakes up faster. Thanks! baglady lct did a very extensive test on this subject and posted it somewhere here for all of us to see. Also SD Formatter helps truly clear an SD card. 64GB seems to be the sweet spot as this card uses one flash versus the 32Gb where 2x16GB flash are used which is slower. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted October 17, 2015 Share #133 Posted October 17, 2015 From http://overgaard.dk/Leica-Camera-Typ-601.html. I find it a well written and informative history lesson. I also agree on the observation made by Thorstein as seen from pros "Quality is good, but speed is more important.l". Imo this is THE weakness of the digital Ms. Their slow and sluggish compared to SLRs. The start-up time allows the photographer to miss the decisive moments. The response time from pressing the shutter until capturing is behind DSLRS even though it ought to be shorter. And so on with regards to buffer and similar. So this raise two absolute critical questions; will Leica improve the M, and will Leica improve this on coming SL? Perhaps Q can point to some answers. Is the start-up time noticeable by user. If so its not good enough, and Leica will have to improve. I think overall processing speed is a bigger issue. It prevents anything but a first generation EVF from being used. As for startup time, with the right card that seems to be no real issue. I just leave it on when I am carrying it. My biggest picks are high ISO performance is sub-par compared to other cameras. I guess that will improve with subsequent generations of the camera. Dynamic range is middle of the pack. You ask, will Leica improve the next M and other cameras? Obviously, the next new cameras will be an improvement or there will be no sense in spending the NRE. Will you be happy? What do you want me to say? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyalf Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share #134 Posted October 17, 2015 .... You ask, will Leica improve the next M and other cameras? Obviously, the next new cameras will be an improvement or there will be no sense in spending the NRE. Will you be happy? What do you want me to say? Its far from obvious since the development from M9 to M240 was to make it slower for some performance indicators, among them start-up time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted October 17, 2015 Share #135 Posted October 17, 2015 Its far from obvious since the development from M9 to M240 was to make it slower for some performance indicators, among them start-up time. I wish people would stop this misleading nonsense. The M240 is every bit as quick as the M9 when used the same way. The start up time is only extended if you use live view all the time, which most of us don't, unless we deliberately choose to due to the needs of the moment. It's the same with whomever it is who talks about shutter delay. Again, there is none, unless, once again, you use live view and metering has changed from classic to reading off the sensor. Even then, it's a moot point. If you use it the way each of these additions is intended, you should have no issues with slowness. Who would use live view when street shooting or capturing sequences quickly. If those are your requirements, and they are perfectly valid requirements, use something more suitable. I suspect these same people would never moan about their 911 not being particularly suitable for a camping or a fishing trip... or a family day out with the kids and grandparents... I think there are a number of people on here who seem to be unhappy unless they have something to complain about. If the camera doesn't suit the way you photograph, buy another camera. I moved from Nikon, not for additional functionality, but to return to basics. Interestingly, many of these same people are conspicuously absent from any of the photo sections or gallery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 17, 2015 Share #136 Posted October 17, 2015 Why exclude live view? It's part of the camera, isn't it? Are you also saying only good photographers (in your opinion?) are allowed to say they're unhappy with the performance of the camera? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 17, 2015 Share #137 Posted October 17, 2015 I guess is what made the Q so much faster than previous Leicas, like M's, was use of the S processor. That will have to be upgraded very soon (like in 4 days) in order to take care of additional requirements and needs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted October 17, 2015 Share #138 Posted October 17, 2015 Why exclude live view? It's part of the camera, isn't it? Are you also saying only good photographers (in your opinion?) are allowed to say they're unhappy with the performance of the camera? You know exactly what I mean IkarusJohn... You use the M60 for many of the same reasons I choose the way I set up my M-P. Of all the people on here, you know better than most the advantages and disadvantages of the current M compared to other digital cameras. In both our cases, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages by a considerable margin, otherwise we would have been incredibly foolish to have spent the money we did. Others will have different requirements and should therefore buy the appropriate camera to meet their needs. The M was never a camera for everyone. What the new series allowed was a little flexibility built around the core camera. Which I for one think was a reasonable decision for Leica to make. If the new camera due to be announced within the next three or four days meets those requirements in terms of faster live view operation and all the other points continually mentioned when discussing M cameras, well, maybe they will change systems and we can have a more helpful and supportive forum for the rest of us who just want to learn, develop our photography with an M camera in a supportive and respectful way. As far as 'good' photographers... Where did you get that from? I never one mentioned 'good' in my previous post, let alone give any indication of an opionion. I'm not that arrogant. Some on here are photographers whose style I really like, some not so much... Absolutely not the point. By posting photos, people are showing a little of their life and what makes them want to take photos in the first place. ALL deserve respect and most welcome constructive criticism, as do I. How else does one improve without the input from peers or by looking at others work. The point I was making, clearly clumsily, was that there appears to be a number of users who are more interested in the technology and how the cameras operate than actually their use. That's fine too... Everyone is entitled to buy what they want to buy. They are also perfectly entitled to voice their opinion on the merits or otherwise of the designers choices. What I object to is the tendency to state opinion as fact or to take every opportunity to criticise those choices as if they apply to everyone. They don't. The worry is potential owners read this nonsense and may, rather than think it all through and make an informed decision based on their own needs, simply either disappear from the forum or choose something else, when the M would suit them perfectly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 17, 2015 Share #139 Posted October 17, 2015 I think you misunderstand me. Live view is offered as an option, why not accept the camera is slow in that function. As you rightly point out, I don't have live view or any other number of options because they detract from the camera as a whole. Sure, you can put gaffer tape over the LCD, not have an EVF and pretend it's a better M9. What kind of solution is that? These functions compromise the camera as a whole. It's not enough to say the functions common to the M9 are better. For me, if the functionality isn't good enough, it shouldn't be there. I also take take very serious exception to your comments about serious, respectful and supportive - that criticism falls well short of the mark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted October 17, 2015 Share #140 Posted October 17, 2015 No, I think it is you that don't understand me. If you read my posts you will see that I DO accept that live view is slow in comparison. I choose not to use live view most of the time for that very reason. However, there ARE times when it IS useful. At those times, which are admittedly are few and far between for me, I am glad they are available. You don't need gaffer tape to cover the LCD... you know perfectly well that you can choose to switch it off. Again, it's useful at times (tripod use is one very obvious example for some people). My M-P use is probably very similar to your M60 use. Had the M60 been available when I bought my M-P I may very well have bought one too. It's just the additional cost for less flexibility doesn't really justify itself to me. I don't need to pretend the M is better than the M9. There are advantages with the M over the M9 that suit me perfectly. Shutter noise, better rangefinder, better screen (when used) and so on. However, had I bought an M9 a few years ago I probably wouldn't have felt the need to upgrade to an M... but who knows... perhaps I would... particularly when it was far from clear what the outcome would be with the sensor issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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