New Leica M coming this year?

[wlaidlaw]

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A digital rangefinder is very possible. Contax did it years ago in the G. The single horizontal phase detection array, with IR illumination for low light, gave a read out to the nearest centimetre and when it did pick up a focus (not by any means always), it was very accurate. With modern AF detectors and electronics the limitations of the Contax G system could be overcome. It would then just be a matter of matching the focus feed from the lens mount ramp and RF cam to the electronic distance detection, either on an electronic read out or mechanically with a needle. This would be bound to be cheaper than the precision mechanics necessary for the mechanical messucher (M) system and less susceptible to going out of adjustment. 

 

Wilson

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[rosuna]

I have nothing against APS cameras but even if i liked touchscreen and external evf, i would not pay $2.5K for a body and mandatory accessories which are not optimized for M lenses and don't do better than the faster and more Leica-like Fuji X-E2 that i got for much less. YMMV.

 

The Leica T is different. You use more a tool you like (because you are proud of it, feel comfortable with it, feel good looking at it or creative using it). The M cameras do this in a different way (that tactile, good materials, high precision tool feeling...). The T is designed for a different public, but the goal is the same.

 

The weak point in the initial offer of the T system is, in my opinion, the lenses. The specifications are conservative, the dimensions of the zooms are large compared to the body, the general look and feel is standard but the price is really high. The system will be more exiting when more interesting lenses are in the catalogue (this happened with Fuji's system too).

 

The T system needs time (and additional investments). 

[lct]

[...] The system will be more exiting when more interesting lenses are in the catalogue (this happened with Fuji's system too). The T system needs time (and additional investments). 

 

Hi Ruben, as far as i'm concerned i would say that the new Fuji lenses are too big to be interesting and that the T system is too expensive for an APS-C system which is not significantly superior to the competition. YMMV of course. 

[bocaburger]

the T system is too expensive for an APS-C system which is not significantly superior to the competition.

That's my opinion also.  There are enough reasonably compact reasonably affordable FF cameras out there at this point that APS-C to me is relegated to entry-level and/or backup-body status.  The lack of a built-in viewfinder on the T is also a deal breaker for me, as it would be something I would use 100% of the time and don't see the point in having to go to added expense and then have that wart on top taking space and in harm's way of knocks.  

 

IMHO at Leica's prices their only ace in the hole is the optomechanical rangefinder of the M system.  Once an EVF is the only option there are better options than the T.

[rosuna]

I cannot agree.

 

The T is expensive, but different. 

The same problem the M and S systems have. There are much lower priced alternatives with the same or better "specifications" (Canon, Nikon or Sony FF cameras, and Pentax medium format), but Leica is different in some way.

 

Maybe the prices of Leica gear are too high, but Leica may enjoy a healthy super margin (if they keep the costs under control). 

 

The key for Leica is not price wars, of competition in terms of specifications, but strong differentiation (with good enough specifications and reasonable prices, of course). 

 

Leica cannot survive in a war based on direct confrontation with Japanese companies. 

 

But differentiation is a serious conceptual problem. Leica should not think on a product similar to a Sony 7. That is a suicide. 

[Peter Kilmister]

I cannot agree.

 

The T is expensive, but different. 

 

The same problem the M and S systems have. There are much lower priced alternatives with the same or better "specifications" (Canon, Nikon or Sony FF cameras, and Pentax medium format), but Leica is different in some way.

 

Maybe the prices of Leica gear are too high, but Leica may enjoy a healthy super margin (if they keep the costs under control). 

 

The key for Leica is not price wars, of competition in terms of specifications, but strong differentiation (with good enough specifications and reasonable prices, of course). 

 

Leica cannot survive in a war based on direct confrontation with Japanese companies. 

 

But differentiation is a serious conceptual problem. Leica should not think on a product similar to a Sony 7. That is a suicide.

You have my wholehearted agreement that Leica should not try to compete on price. Quality costs a quality price. My view is that Leica lenses are amazing. The hardware and software to support those lenses is also very good ... although the S/W might need a kick now and then.

If it ain't broke don't fix it is an old saying that is true so often. If people will pay thousands for a product then it can't be too wrong. I love my Leica kit and am learning to adapt to it and find the best combinations.

 

Just maintaining the quality is the most importance aspect of a niche market.

[IkarusJohn]

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I agree with Rosuna, but I can't see a full frame Leica mirrorless being "similar to a Sony 7".  

 

If they can produce an APS-C based camera which is significantly different (in such a crowded market sector), I'm sure they could produce a very appealing full frame version, sufficiently different to the A7 to be appealing.

[lct]

The key for Leica is not price wars, of competition in terms of specifications, but strong differentiation

 

 

What differentiation would you suggest for an APS-C camera? Looks like everything has been done but a true rangefinder that Leica cannot retain for obvious reasons. 

[edwardkaraa]

So what is so special about the T, apart from touchscreen and body shell? Compared to other alternatives, the most special thing is that it comes without evf, which you have to buy as an accessory, and you can't fit in most bags when mounted, let alone the unstable shooting position.

 

With an eventual M-evf, Leica has the advantage to own the only ff sensor that plays well with rf glass. That by itself is so unique and attractive that it can draw so many people who love manual focusing and Leica glass but not the rf way.

[MarkP]

So what is so special about the T, apart from touchscreen and body shell? Compared to other alternatives, the most special thing is that it comes without evf, which you have to buy as an accessory, and you can't fit in most bags when mounted, let alone the unstable shooting position.

 

With an eventual M-evf, Leica has the advantage to own the only ff sensor that plays well with rf glass. That by itself is so unique and attractive that it can draw so many people who love manual focusing and Leica glass but not the rf way.

 

To me, the biggest disadvantage of the T is having to use it with that bulky EVF - I don't shoot Zombie style.

[edwardkaraa]

Exactly, the evf is such an essential part of a mirrorless camera, it's really absurd that Leica wants to sell it as an additional part, and kill the camera ergonomics in the same time.

[edwardkaraa]

On the other hand we all remember the outcry of last year when frustrated and disillusioned people finally found out the long awaited ff a7 doesn't work with most rf glass. Isn't that a sign clear enough for Leica? If not I really believe they must be really lacking at the managerial level.

[rosuna]

 

What differentiation would you suggest for an APS-C camera? Looks like everything has been done but a true rangefinder that Leica cannot retain for obvious reasons. 

 

 

Leica designed a new interface for the "computer side" of digital cameras. I like it. You have a tool, and two souls: the computer thing and the optomechanical side. Leica has separated the two sides quite radically. Modern interface for the computer, and simple/tactile interface for the camera (two wheels). This is radical and different. There is another differentiation element: the tactile quality of the body (polished aluminium unibody). This kind of attention to detail is not present in the cameras of the competition. The T lenses are far more conventional (and too expensive).

[jmahto]

On the other hand we all remember the outcry of last year when frustrated and disillusioned people finally found out the long awaited ff a7 doesn't work with most rf glass. Isn't that a sign clear enough for Leica? If not I really believe they must be really lacking at the managerial level.

Exactly my thought. Lenses for A7 world with good performance are going into DSLR territory, size wise. Of course they are AF with excellent performance but FF Sony is loosing differentiation with DSLR.

[algrove]

Exactly my thought. Lenses for A7 world with good performance are going into DSLR territory, size wise. Of course they are AF with excellent performance but FF Sony is loosing differentiation with DSLR.

Agree for AF, however for MF on the A7 series the Zeiss Loxia are small Leica like in size. If comparing the two MF systems of Leica and Sony, the A7 they are getting close. I just think Sony does not get it for serious photographers with their compressed files, non-RAW option and non electronic shutter, even though the A7II seems a positive step forward. Sure IBIS and a sensor cleaner have my attention. If the detractors significantly change for Sony, then they could be taken more seriously by many.

 

I used to laugh at the continual Sony price discounts, but now Leica has joined the crowd with 6 months of sales-so far. Something serious is negatively impacting Leica sales.

[jaapv]

Not that serious, I suppose. Their main camera is at the end of its market lifespan, and the customers know it, their subtop T camera has more competition than expected and needs system-companion, their X series is chugging along...

Nothing that a new M frenzy and EVF-T wouldn't cure.

[IkarusJohn]

Exactly, the evf is such an essential part of a mirrorless camera, it's really absurd that Leica wants to sell it as an additional part, and kill the camera ergonomics in the same time.

 

I agree that the elf for the T is bulky - with it on, it takes more room in my bag than any M camera. However, it is very good, it has the GPS built in (if that is of use to anyone), and the ergonomics are very good. I never shoot withou it. 

 

If if they could build it in, that would be great, but it would result in a dSLR like pimple on the top, much like the A7. I'm not really sure that camera would be much smaller, unless they reduced the size of the LCD, which would be a shame. I tend to leave the evf on and just deal with the size. Functionally, I wouldn't change anything in that regard. 

 

I actually don't mind the APS-C sensor.  I wish it was the same sensor as the M(240), as that would give me consistency and I do believe it would soak up A7 buyers and those who don't want/get the rangefinder bit. I certainly don't buy the suggestions that this would put Leica in direct competition with Sony A7 (such a camera would have less competition than it already has in the APS-C segment) or that it would take away M buyers (more likely to bring in more, as people migrate to the M). A Leica sale is a Leica sale, after all. 

 

Cheers

John

[asiafish]

Both are quite possible, but I doubt that such a camera would be regarded as an M successor. More likely as a new departure - and a hard road, competing with the likes of the Sony Alpha, if full frame,  it would eat into the M typ 240 camera sales.

I still think a next generation true M should be due by the numbers.

I can see such a camera (M mount, EVF, no rangefinder) as a modern "Digital CL" and a replacement for the M-E rolled into one model, positioned below the true rangefinder (M240 successor).  If its small and light enough I might even buy one.

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[asiafish]

I agree that the elf for the T is bulky - with it on, it takes more room in my bag than any M camera. However, it is very good, it has the GPS built in (if that is of use to anyone), and the ergonomics are very good. I never shoot withou it. 

 

If if they could build it in, that would be great, but it would result in a dSLR like pimple on the top, much like the A7. I'm not really sure that camera would be much smaller, unless they reduced the size of the LCD, which would be a shame. I tend to leave the evf on and just deal with the size. Functionally, I wouldn't change anything in that regard. 

 

I actually don't mind the APS-C sensor.  I wish it was the same sensor as the M(240), as that would give me consistency and I do believe it would soak up A7 buyers and those who don't want/get the rangefinder bit. I certainly don't buy the suggestions that this would put Leica in direct competition with Sony A7 (such a camera would have less competition than it already has in the APS-C segment) or that it would take away M buyers (more likely to bring in more, as people migrate to the M). A Leica sale is a Leica sale, after all. 

 

Cheers

John

No complaints about APS-C image quality and the sensor in the T (and X, X Vario and X2) is a very good one.  No, its not cutting edge, but so what, the image quality is there, the high ISO performance is there, and there aren't any reliability or availability issues.

 

While I love my M Monochrom (1st gen) and M-E, I actually use my X and X Vario quite a bit more, and have never had any desire for better image quality, even when printing large.

[rramesh]

The problem is that each module in a camera has a different obsolescence window.

 

The mechanical rangefinder has a long window. An EVF is a lot shorter. Trying to cram both mechanical modules and electronic modules into a single product means that the product's obsolescence is determined by the lifespan of the smallest.

 

In fact when the M240 came out the image processor was already obsolete and the EFV was nearing obsolescence.

 

If a camera manufacturer can sell in volume this is manageable. Not so in the case of Leica who is selling a luxury product. 

 

Ideally what Leica needs is a design that allows for module upgradeability. Not sure if they can achieve it.