timde Posted January 5, 2015 Share #141 Posted January 5, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) It could be interesting if in the near future a "digital back" is developed for existing rangefinders. Perhaps harvesting parts from a Sony A7 and fitting them to a custom back shell. Sony might even be happy to sell a sensor and electronics platform for that (as they already do for some existing makers). Zeiss might even be thinking about that, they have a good relationship with Sony and a Rangefinder body that could be adapted. Sony could resurrect the CLE as well ... As for market share, a Digital Rangefinder priced at 3500 will do much more to expand the market than will a Digital Rangefinder priced at 7000! I often assume the market is shrinking as a factor of demographics, but as the time comes (today) to buy a new Digital camera I'm finding that Price is the actual factor that will cause me not to buy a Leica M, and so that market falls by one ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Hi timde, Take a look here A very hypothetical "what if?". I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ErikP Posted January 5, 2015 Share #142 Posted January 5, 2015 It could be interesting if in the near future a "digital back" is developed for existing rangefinders. Perhaps harvesting parts from a Sony A7 and fitting them to a custom back shell. Sony might even be happy to sell a sensor and electronics platform for that (as they already do for some existing makers). Zeiss might even be thinking about that, they have a good relationship with Sony and a Rangefinder body that could be adapted. Sony could resurrect the CLE as well ... As for market share, a Digital Rangefinder priced at 3500 will do much more to expand the market than will a Digital Rangefinder priced at 7000! I often assume the market is shrinking as a factor of demographics, but as the time comes (today) to buy a new Digital camera I'm finding that Price is the actual factor that will cause me not to buy a Leica M, and so that market falls by one ... I do believe you are right – price is an issue for expansion of the rangefinder niche. Even if you are positioned at a very high-income level - it is hard to justify investing 7000 for a body and lets say 3000+4000 more for lenses when there is a family in the picture as well. Even if the level of investment is reachable it does not really make sense since kids need some capital when they grow up, houses needs investments that actually pay back well if sold and so on. It might be so that the customer base will be 50+ just because most of the more prioritised expenses have been done and it is easier to motivate the complete picture at that age. There should not be so difficult to widen the number of people understanding the benefit with a rangefinder way of photography. Just my 50 cent. Regards Erik Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted January 5, 2015 Share #143 Posted January 5, 2015 exactly: there is undoubtedly a large potential niche market of (mostly younger) people who know exactly what a digital rangefinder is, and want one- but who simply cannot afford the Leica price. They drool at the Leica but cannot/will not bite at that price. On the other side of the coin- those that can easily afford the Leica prices- many of these people would be compelled to get a new rangefinder from another maker: if only as 'a back up' and do do some serious 'head to head' comparison testing... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 5, 2015 Share #144 Posted January 5, 2015 Maybe - but I see them buying M8 cameras. exactly: there is undoubtedly a large potential niche market of (mostly younger) people who know exactly what a digital rangefinder is, and want one- but who simply cannot afford the Leica price. They drool at the Leica but cannot/will not bite at that price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted January 5, 2015 Share #145 Posted January 5, 2015 well obviously they will get a used M8 or an M9 currently- there is little else available. But lets face it- these cameras have really dated since the M came out... when I hear that old Cla-Chick wh-heeze shutter on my old m8 I think of stream driven jitneys... and the ISO? God awful. Color balance is excellent though... What if there was a $3500 dollar crop CLE style camera- with a dedicated 35mm f2 kit lens... what then I wonder? Or full frame with a 50? $5K and you get 3 lenses with the camera: 35, 50 and 90- all in a wooden box set? Steve Huff would wet his pants... Available in Monochrome for just 300$ more? Poor Ken Rockwell would have an apoplectic fit trying to get his review (and sales links) up... I know I would almost certainly find some way of justifying buying one. The way folks here poo-poo the potential sales volumes such kits would soon become highly valued collectors items... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 5, 2015 Share #146 Posted January 5, 2015 Just ask Voigtlander and Zeiss how cheaper rangefinders fare And those are companies with a long history in building RF cameras.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted January 5, 2015 Share #147 Posted January 5, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) C'Mon Jaap: I am a rangefinder aficionado- I know all about Voigtlander and how much their cameras still sell for. I have used Bessa cameras- the optical RF's are excellent- and they DO NOT cost the Earth to manufacture! As to 'how cheaper rangefinder fare' correct me if I am wrong, but Canon sold around 1,000,000 pieces of the Canonet QL17 GIII... Lord knows how many units from the entire Canonet range... now what was Leica's total rangefinder camera production over all time again? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 5, 2015 Share #148 Posted January 5, 2015 Yes. but the Canonet was much closer in concept and intention to the present mirrorless cameras than to Leica. As for Voigtlander and Zeiss, where is their RF production now? Yes, they were cheaper and good (voigtlander to excellent (zeiss) cameras. But still Leica is the last man standing. Apart from the premature Bessa/Nikon hybrid RX-1 (another interesting attempt) which had/has its affectionados but did not set the world on fire, there has not even been an attempt to enter the market. And we can suppose those potential competitors know what they are doing. With the present-day shift to mirrorless the proposition gets less and less attractive. Leica is not diversifying for nothing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted January 5, 2015 Share #149 Posted January 5, 2015 Oh, yea. We have snow and the temperature is plummeting one degree F an hour. It will be about -13F when I get to bed. Why? Is my attitude showing? . Time to go out in the snow and write something! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david strachan Posted January 5, 2015 Share #150 Posted January 5, 2015 Time to go out in the snow and write something! Hah! Today 38C, on the second day of the new year 44C (111.2 degF). Very little rain. Bad bushfires in Adelaide. On the plus side just picked my apricot tree over the last few days...4 year old tree with over 800 fruit...yum! All have a good year. Particularly good health to you all. cheers Dave S Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david strachan Posted January 5, 2015 Share #151 Posted January 5, 2015 Yes. but the Canonet was much closer in concept and intention to the present mirrorless cameras than to Leica. As for Voigtlander and Zeiss, where is their RF production now? Yes, they were cheaper and good (voigtlander to excellent (zeiss) cameras. But still Leica is the last man standing. Apart from the premature Bessa/Nikon hybrid RX-1 (another interesting attempt) which had/has its affectionados but did not set the world on fire, there has not even been an attempt to enter the market. And we can suppose those potential competitors know what they are doing.With the present-day shift to mirrorless the proposition gets less and less attractive. Leica is not diversifying for nothing. Leica may be a very small part of the camera market...I'm sure it will survive and it's M's will go on forever. Todays CAD-CAM and manufacturing could make a rangefinder that was an exact copy...but it would not be a Leica! The history, it's quirks and foibles, and the abject simplicity of the camera, make the Leica camera legacy. That's worth a lot to me. cheers Dave S Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dant Posted January 7, 2015 Share #152 Posted January 7, 2015 Here is a good example of why I'd move away from Leica fast...if there was another digital rangefinder. (I have 5 Leicas and 6 Fujis) http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1059620-REG/leica_14014_soft_release_button_leica.html http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/909178-REG/leica_14397_body_cap_m.html Everything is overpriced and the Leica has a 2nd rate sensor for the $. No one can argue the fit and finish of the Leica...superb. But fit and finish don't produce pix...it massages the ego of the camera fondler. The Fuji forum banned me for telling a few of them that they are a bunch of camera fondlers. But Leica devotees are second to none when it comes to camera fondlers. There is nothing wrong with being a camera collector. But if you can't produce anything worthwhile for pix, don't get mad if someone calls you a camera fondler. Such people put their pride in their fondling. A non-camera fondler puts their pride in their pix. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted January 7, 2015 Share #153 Posted January 7, 2015 Here is a good example of why I'd move away from Leica fast… Everything is overpriced ... "Overpriced" in these examples simply mean that they're more than you want to pay for them. Simple economics dictates that the price is what the market will bear; if the price is too high then the vendor must drop the price to sell his wares. This appears not to be the case. ... and the Leica has a 2nd rate sensor for the $. ... You're entitled to your opinion of course but I don't share it. Certainly there are sensors in other cameras that will, for example, offer better high-ISO performance but I don't see any other full frame sensors that will give better wide-angle performance across the frame with M lenses. That alone makes them 'best in class' and suggests that they're first-rate sensors (whatever that might mean). … The Fuji forum banned me for telling a few of them that they are a bunch of camera fondlers. But Leica devotees are second to none when it comes to camera fondlers. ... Which underlines what a pleasant and tolerant forum this is. But if you come here and are deliberately provocative and insult the patrons en mass the law of averages will tell you that it won't be long before someone takes offence. Since someone can only use one camera at a time does it imply that someone who owns 5 Leica cameras might harbour camera fondling tendencies? Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted January 7, 2015 Share #154 Posted January 7, 2015 I'd like to know what's wrong with fondling cameras ? I do it between all photos Therefore it's an important requirement for me ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikP Posted January 7, 2015 Share #155 Posted January 7, 2015 I'd like to know what's wrong with fondling cameras ?I do it between all photos Therefore it's an important requirement for me ..... I would certainly not be interested in Leica if quality dropped regarding finish and style - what does that say about me? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Lowe Posted January 7, 2015 Share #156 Posted January 7, 2015 :rolleyes:Umm..I thought the complaint in this thread was that the shelves were empty in California.... I was just at the BH store as well as Samy's and they had plenty of everything except for the 35 cron. Nobody seems to have those right now, not even B&H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted January 8, 2015 Share #157 Posted January 8, 2015 I would certainly not be interested in Leica if quality dropped regarding finish and style - what does that say about me? It says you have style, and certain standards in life ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
semi-ambivalent Posted January 8, 2015 Share #158 Posted January 8, 2015 I was just at the BH store as well as Samy's and they had plenty of everything except for the 35 cron. Nobody seems to have those right now, not even B&H. Oh, nice work there Joshua. Go and re-start the 'new 35mm Summicron is in the works' rumor thread. s-a Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikP Posted January 8, 2015 Share #159 Posted January 8, 2015 It says you have style' date=' and certain standards in life .....[/quote'] That is My take on it as well :-) i just love there mechanical gear! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpsawin Posted January 8, 2015 Share #160 Posted January 8, 2015 As car vendors go Tesla is a small boutique manufacturer. At over $80,000 per vehicle, not inexpensive either, yet I frequently see them on the road almost every day. The last one I saw was actually in flames due to battery problems. Seems like that should not happen even with a modestly priced car like a Tesla. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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