jaques Posted December 30, 2014 Share #81 Posted December 30, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well, fortunately Leica M is not the only model they are building, it may have escaped your notice we have S,M,X and T models nowadays... I hardly think that Beverly Hills is quite representative of retail sales. well, no, maybe- but I think there is something in Barjohn's point. From the sidelines Leica's business model could well be described as 'Quixotic' at best... (IMHO) They do risk much betting/resting on their high class cache- and exclusivity- for which they can (currently) demand a high premium. They can do this because they Have the cache- and in some areas- still have a certain niche monopoly. I think these things are tenuous things: brands can tarnish and monopolies can be smashed- constant innovation is required. Success has its own risks; not least: Competition! Competition is good for the Consumer! 5 years is a good test- and will be interesting to watch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 Hi jaques, Take a look here A very hypothetical "what if?". I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted December 30, 2014 Share #82 Posted December 30, 2014 Well, yes, but they do have a monopoly in their niche, and it is over fifity years ago that they were driven there by the market. I disagree that they are "demanding a premium". It is less than ten years ago that the firm was on the brink -maybe even over the brink- of bankrupcy. Hardly a sign of demanding a large margin on their products. Nor can we discount the absence of competition. That situation suggests that other players do not think a similar product would be profitable. Nowadays they are healthy, expanding and moving into new markets. I don't think there is much wrong with their strategy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted December 30, 2014 Share #83 Posted December 30, 2014 Let's ask ourselves why Leica is opening retail sales stores near where existing dealers have been selling Leicas for years. Perhaps they want to use the stores for barely making a return in say the US and where they can concentrate profits on their items in the "home" country, Germany. Then there is the question of wholesale pricing to their older stablished dealers. When you own the entire sales chain from factory to retailer, Leica can determine just how much profit to make wherever they locate. Keep in mind in the US, the corporate tax rate is nearly the highest of any industrialized country. So in this regard it would make sense to keep US operations near break even while putting all the profits back home through pricing arrangements. Do they sell more gear because of these company stores? Perhaps, but at the risk (or is it intended risk) of alienating their dealers who just might stop selling Leica gear period. Dealers near me say that both Nikon and Canon are playing tricks with their online sales where new items are available on line to consumers while at the same time dealers are waiting for these same new items for many weeks. They are beginning to feel like bottom feeders in the supply chain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 30, 2014 Share #84 Posted December 30, 2014 Before they went non-public their sales to the American continent were 17% - about the same as Germany alone and less than Asia. Still the USA market should be an important one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted December 30, 2014 Share #85 Posted December 30, 2014 Competition is good for the Consumer! And Profit is what drives the Producer. Given the number of manufacturers that have produced rf cameras of some description, isn't it interesting to note that none has seriously attempted to do what Leica has succeeded in doing - bringing a FF RF to market? If another manufacturer had done so then perhaps Leica would be struggling to play catchup. Now if someone else wants to enter this niche market, they have to deal with all the problems that Leica have and are still dealing with and do so within a cost factor which delivers a product which undercuts Leica. And FWIW IMO the most significant problem is that of legacy lenses - using these is a headache for any manufacturer because they are an unknown quantity and require at minimum an interface (Leica's 6-bit coding) or user input, and some older lenses or independents will never be catered for. Someone said that its a kludge and they are right - Leica is dealing with this in a limited way and perhaps we will see ROM M lenses eventually - but for another manufacturer to deal with this is asking a great deal. And its only one of the issues facing a manufacturer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted December 30, 2014 Share #86 Posted December 30, 2014 I will be surprised if Leica survives for another 5 years. They will not survive on RF cameras. With expanded manufacturing facilities and consumer stores comes increased overhead and the need to sell in greater volume. Clearly, the focus is on the luxury goods market and not the photography market. This is evidenced by the pricing strategy and the nature of the retail outlets. However, the company's that have been successful at this (Luis Vuitton, Hermes, etc.) are known for producing very high quality goods with exemplary quality control using the very best materials. Leica has used the lowest quality electronics they could buy whether it be LCDs, EVFs, processors, buffer memory, etc. with only an exterior appearance of quality and the countless threads on this forum discussing the deficiencies attests to this fact. For those that just want to carry a camera for prestige, it won't matter but to those that want equipment that works reliably it will. Even where we would expect Leica to be able to perform, it hasn't. For example, look at the Leica T and its lenses. Many months after the camera was announced, Leica couldn't produce it or its lenses (even using a third party manufacturer) in quantity to support its stores or distributors. The two new lenses still are not available many months after announcement. How does a retail store stay in business with no inventory to sell? How does a retailer survive if they have no product to sell during the Christmas season (a period when most retailers make the sales they need to carry them through the year)? The limited inventory that is available is only available because it is obsolete and not selling. I live in southern California, which is one of the more affluent areas in the country. A walk into our major shopping centers (South Coast Plaza and Fashion Island) is to see every major luxury good vendor you can name along with every high end retailer. A stroll in the local camera stores that sell Leica is to see mostly empty shelves in the Leica section where the Sony, Fuji, Canon, Nikon shelves are bursting with product. Standing around and listening to the sales people and what they are recommending to customers and it is almost never Leica. The lens inventory is small, the body inventory even smaller and the interest in selling them smaller yet. While I don't have access to Leica's financial data, I would bet that the Leica store in Beverly Hills is losing money. It is in very high retail space location and there Internet presence has been pretty low and their inventory has also been low. You need to turn a lot of inventory to pay for space and labor. Time will tell... I fundamentally disagree with all these arguments Firstly Leica is known and does produce very high quality products. Their electronics and other components are often locally sourced or from smaller companies which is interesting and quirky. I have had no issues with any Leica I have bought that didn't need a slight adjustment in use to ignore. I know you were vocally unhappy with the XV and T but most of the XV customers seem to be very happy and the results are tremendous. Same for the T. However I don't believe you have owned a digital M, therefore your comments seem premature. If you had you would see a beautiful workflow, design and results. The M is completely unmatched. And yes I have used Fuji and Sony and in fact have an A7S. To say Luis Vuitton and Hermes produce goods any better then 1000s of other cheaper bag makers is laughable. The reason there are more on shelves is that Leica just commissioned a new factory for many of its products to solve the old scarcities. If you knew Leica history you will always see products scarce for ages. You seem to be saying that both having stock, and not having stock, is a bad thing, a bit contradictory. Leica is not exactly cheap and why would sales people recommend it to most people. You are hardly in the shop all the time, the few snippets you hear are hardly any statistical indication of anything. I suspect Leica will be around a long time after we will be, as it always is Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted December 30, 2014 Share #87 Posted December 30, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) The reason there are more on shelves is that Leica just commissioned a new factory for many of its products to solve the old scarcities. Hard to know which story is true. Do you have insider information? Where are the sales figures ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted December 30, 2014 Share #88 Posted December 30, 2014 Hard to know which story is true. Do you have insider information? Where are the sales figures ? I was merely commenting that Leica just opened a new factory in Weztlar with the stated objective of increasing production. This is public knowledge. In terms of sales I never made any claim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted December 31, 2014 Share #89 Posted December 31, 2014 I live in southern California, which is one of the more affluent areas in the country. A walk into our major shopping centers (South Coast Plaza and Fashion Island) is to see every major luxury good vendor you can name along with every high end retailer. Time will tell... Don't forget that the BH store is also competing with the long established Leica department of Samy's camera down the road on Fairfax and there is another large Leica store in downtown. The Samy's store always has a good amount of new and used stock on hand and they do seem to move units. I bought my TTL from them a long time ago, but stopped buying there after having to deal with one rude sales person too many. But you are right. The rent in the BH store must be astronomical. I have no idea how they sustain that place. I don't think that Leica is going away anytime soon. If anything I think they are healthier than they have in a long time and have been trying to diversify. Their new line of cine lenses are selling quite well. We are talking $250-300k for a set of the Cine Summilux and the Cine Summicrons run $100k for a set of six. Home - CW Sonderoptic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted December 31, 2014 Share #90 Posted December 31, 2014 Keep in mind in the US, the corporate tax rate is nearly the highest of any industrialized country. On paper. The US corporate tax code also has more loopholes than a Swiss cheese. Anyone getting taxed the full rate needs a better accountant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted December 31, 2014 Share #91 Posted December 31, 2014 I was merely commenting that Leica just opened a new factory in Weztlar with the stated objective of increasing production. Sure, but this may not be the reason why products sit on shelves Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 31, 2014 Share #92 Posted December 31, 2014 :rolleyes:Umm..I thought the complaint in this thread was that the shelves were empty in California.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted December 31, 2014 Share #93 Posted December 31, 2014 I've met any number of photographers during my holiday travels who have returned to the Leica RF or taken it up for the first time after years of hauling about DSLR outfits. I recognise them easily ; I'm one of them. We are past the first flush of youth, have a bit of money in our pockets and value no compromise image quality combined with low bulk and weight - step forward the Leica M. Ultimately a photograph requires only a lens and a sensor system. Leica currently have with their M system outstanding examples of both these requirements. There is a never ending supply of potential Leica customers entering this demographic each year. It is all too easy to become parochial about such things. I've met many young Chinese and other Asians carrying Leica M cameras. China and the Far East are now very important markets for Leica. I travel quite a lot and I am always surprised that I virtually never see another Leica M user other than at Leica meets. During a recent three week trip to Taiwan, going to all the photogenic sights, I did not see a single Leica, either M or compact but loads of compact system cameras, mostly Fuji, Sony, Panasonic or Nikon. Same thing on an earlier trip this year to south India. The only person, who recognised my M240, was the bus driver on the one day tour I did of Taipei. He asked me if it was film and was surprised that Leica was still in business and making digital cameras. I live during the summer in a very photogenic village up in the Var mountains in Provence. There are hoards of folk taking photos but again - virtually no Leicas and then only the very occasional compact. The only place that I do either see Leicas being used or people know what I am using, is in Germany. I don't know where all the Leicas being sold go but I don't see them. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted December 31, 2014 Share #94 Posted December 31, 2014 I see one occasionally in London. Most people have no idea what a Leica is and someone quite knowledgeable about photography recently had an argument with me that Leica was in fact a Russian company. Many people think it's a type of dog. The only reason slightly more people know about it recently is that dpreview have actually bothered to post pre views of the T and X. Most people on dpreview think its a brand of panasonic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted December 31, 2014 Share #95 Posted December 31, 2014 I see one occasionally in London. Most people have no idea what a Leica is and someone quite knowledgeable about photography recently had an argument with me that Leica was in fact a Russian company. Many people think it's a type of dog. ... I had a lengthy discussion with the Bulgarian wife of a close friend who was convinced that Leica should be spelt with a "k" and is definitely made in Russia. I suspect that her erroneous conviction relates to Laika being the first dog to orbit the earth aboard Sputnik 2. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 1, 2015 Share #96 Posted January 1, 2015 Given that Laika was a dog who died prematurely, perhaps she was an M9 rather than a K9 dog. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted January 1, 2015 Share #97 Posted January 1, 2015 Colonel, Just for the record I owned 2 M8s (one was a replacement for a defective one). Until a week ago I also still owned the T. The hardest camera to sell I have ever owned. It took months to sell and could not be sold for a 15% discount but required a 25% discount to get sold. The biggest loss and highest depreciation I have ever suffered on a camera (so much for Leica's hold their value). Stores like Sammy's, CameraWest and OC Camera, all Leica dealers, have not had much inventory in their stores. Whether it is because they can't get product or chose not to stock such expensive inventory I don't know. I suspect the former because when I have asked to be able to see a specific camera or lens they frequently state they can't get it and don't know until it appears if they will have it. Perhaps the new factory is producing product for some other region or primarily for their own stores. I do know that when you start competing with your existing supply chain you will eventually lose that path of distribution. If a retailer can't make money with your product, sooner or later they will stop carrying it. When I am out taking pictures I have yet to see anyone else using any Leica and I live in San Clemente which is a tourist area. In fact we get a lot of Europeans as visitors so I would have thought I would have seen a few. Not even the lowly X1 or X2 have I seen in anyone's hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dant Posted January 1, 2015 Share #98 Posted January 1, 2015 The problem with Leica is when things are tough I wont risk losing the Leica. I'd risk it for $2500 but not for $7000. I use Fuji as they are disposable cams. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Bikers%27_Mardi_Gras_no._36_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg/1024px-Bikers%27_Mardi_Gras_no._36_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg On some shoots I am guaranteed on ruining cams and flashes. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/Faygo_Gathering_of_the_Juggalos_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg/757px-Faygo_Gathering_of_the_Juggalos_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Front_Cover_from_Whoop-Whoop_The_Gathering_of_the_Juggalos_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr._lr.jpg/1014px-Front_Cover_from_Whoop-Whoop_The_Gathering_of_the_Juggalos_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr._lr.jpg Leica's sensor needs to be better. For the $ Leica charges the sensor is not that good. It does OK, but not great. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/Orient_Beach_St._Martin_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr._LR.jpg/770px-Orient_Beach_St._Martin_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr._LR.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/GOTJ_Fire_Breather_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg/996px-GOTJ_Fire_Breather_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg Leica's sensor should be the standard that the Japanese are trying to achieve. The only reason shoot Leica is for manual controls. I can shoot in the dark and get my shots... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 1, 2015 Share #99 Posted January 1, 2015 The problem with Leica is when things are tough I wont risk losing the Leica. I'd risk it for $2500 but not for $7000. I use Fuji as they are disposable cams. Love the Mardi Gras biker picture. Sell it to Easyriders. Somehow I've managed to miss it so far in life, but my wife went once with her girlfriends. Wow, she came home with a ton of beads! . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Lss- Posted January 1, 2015 Share #100 Posted January 1, 2015 Some users in this thread have expressed that they never or very seldomly see any Leica cameras being used. In 2014, I definitely saw more M series cameras than in recent years. I remember spotting two in the US, one in London, and three in continental Europe. This is, of course, a very low number in comparison to about any other brand out there (or the mass of generic cameras that are difficult to identify from a distance), but there are users. And for a comparison, I remember seeing only a single Fuji X100 series camera the whole year. Looking at forum threads, they are supposedly rather popular both among rangefinder owners and people who just want a compact camera that performs. It is often not the most touristic areas where I spot the Leicas, and I tend to visit the very touristic places, too. The attractions make photographers out of almost anyone, and I must have seen dozens of people shooting with tablets. Like I said, the Leica numbers are low. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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