StS Posted September 21, 2014 Share #21 Posted September 21, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) This question of reflective vs incident is why I don't put too much stock in people insisting they "use Tri-X @ 320".Are they really?? Pete Well, in my understanding these are two different aspects. Taking spot-meters aside, a light meter averages over the bright and dark parts of a scene, when measuring the reflection. Since most scenes have a pretty similar distribution of bright and dark parts, this typically works out well. However, this technique fails, when taking a photo of a black cat on a black sofa or a white cat on a white carpet, since the light meter will always try to get an average gray. Measuring the incident light at the position of the cat (taking the unikely assumption the cat will not move) will leave the black cat black and the white cat white in the final image, while measuring the reflection will give a grey cat in front of a grey background in both cases. Measuring the reflection is more convenient, measuring the incident light is more accurate in extreme lighting situations. Both measuring methods are about shifting the medium tonal value of the picture, the midtones. It will influence, how any film will be exposed. Using Tri-X @ 320 (and reducing development, also called "pulling") will influence, how the film will react in the very bright and very dark areas; pulling "compresses" very bright and dark areas so they still show drawing, with a slight (and typically unnoticed) loss of differentiation in midtone grey levels. It is about, how this particular film will react to any exposure. Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 21, 2014 Posted September 21, 2014 Hi StS, Take a look here incident vs. reflective metering . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
250swb Posted September 21, 2014 Share #22 Posted September 21, 2014 Using Tri-X @ 320 (and reducing development, also called "pulling") will influence, how the film will react in the very bright and very dark areas; pulling "compresses" very bright and dark areas so they still show drawing, with a slight (and typically unnoticed) loss of differentiation in midtone grey levels. It is about, how this particular film will react to any exposure. I think the point about Tri-X at 320 is that many photographers don't have any idea of what the scene in front of them is 'saying' regarding light and dark areas, they have never given it a thought. And all too often they need a bit more exposure because they fail to recognise the sky takes up two thirds of the picture. It is a lack of discipline in knowing where to meter from when making a reflective reading. In the same case simply pointing the camera at the grass in front of them will give a mid tone reading, so more exposure relative to an overall reading of the 'landscape', which means Tri-X can be rated back at 400 ISO. Pulling and pushing film can then be used as intended, to alter the characteristics of the emulsion, not compensate for poor metering technique. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted September 21, 2014 Share #23 Posted September 21, 2014 ...and most people don't have cats although I can recommend Leica's MEOW Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted September 21, 2014 Share #24 Posted September 21, 2014 I want a hand-held light meter with the following features: 1. Incident and reflected (not fussed by spot). 2. Compact and light (so I can wear the cord around my neck with the meter sitting in a pocket when not using it. 3. Analogue - I'm such a Luddite but I like to be able to read off the aperture/shutterspeed combos as it's fast and efficient. 4. Good low-light sensitivity. I think the 398A is your only option if you want to buy brand new. Naturally, if you go second hand there are many more options including buying refurbished Weston meters or trying your luck on eBay. If you can stomach using a meter with a digital readout, the 308 is decent value, small and convenient (though I know some aren't keen that it doesn't offer an aperture priority "mode"). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted September 21, 2014 Share #25 Posted September 21, 2014 I think the 398A is your only option if you want to buy brand new. Naturally, if you go second hand there are many more options including buying refurbished Weston meters or trying your luck on eBay. If you can stomach using a meter with a digital readout, the 308 is decent value, small and convenient (though I know some aren't keen that it doesn't offer an aperture priority "mode"). The shutter priority of the 308 really gives me the shits - thats the one I currently have. The extra step back-calculating is ridiculous and time wasting. Who, using an incident light meter would ever want shutter over aperture priority? The 398A really interests me but it's EV range is only 4-17. I've also been advised by Les_Sismore that the Gossen Sixtomat is very good (albeit digital) and has an EV range of -2.5 to 18! I'll also follow up your suggestion of a second hand meter. Thanks for your advice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted September 21, 2014 Share #26 Posted September 21, 2014 Who, using an incident light meter would ever want shutter over aperture priority? Anyone using studio strobes. For a given flash intensity, you adjust exposure using the aperture rather than the shutter dial. The 308 is primarily designed as a flash meter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted September 21, 2014 Share #27 Posted September 21, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...and most people don't have cats although I can recommend Leica's MEOW I don't believe that, take a look at how many cats are photographed in 'lens testing' threads, although I think they are better used for 'decisive moment' training of the photographer. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
honcho Posted September 21, 2014 Share #28 Posted September 21, 2014 And as a flash meter, the 308 works very well. It also works well as a non-flash incident or reflective meter and all the spluttering over the tiresome 'extra step' in applying aperture values to the reading is a red herring unless you really, unavoidably need to blindly follow the meter. If you don't need to do as you're told, as in applying a little thought and experience, or don't trust a ttl matrix, don't need spot metering or just want an incident or reflective meter that will work off an AA battery, is accurate and will slip into a pocket, then a 308 doesn't really offer too much to complain about within it's metering range. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted September 21, 2014 Share #29 Posted September 21, 2014 The shutter priority of the 308 really gives me the shits - thats the one I currently have. The extra step back-calculating is ridiculous and time wasting. Totally agree, but I still have one and use it from time to time. I think my favourite gives the best of both worlds, you can choose aperture or shutter priority, it has a swivel head, and of course does incident or reflected readings (and with a swivel head you aren't turning it away from you to take a reading), and it is the Gossen Digipro F. It is also shirt pocket size and doesn't weigh much. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted September 21, 2014 Share #30 Posted September 21, 2014 The shutter priority of the 308 really gives me the shits - thats the one I currently have. The extra step back-calculating is ridiculous and time wasting. Just push the up or down arrows on its side to find the aperture you want. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted September 21, 2014 Share #31 Posted September 21, 2014 So who is using what incident meter? I wanted something compact and bought the little Sekonic L-208 a while ago but I hate it. I want a hand-held light meter with the following features: 1. Incident and reflected (not fussed by spot). 2. Compact and light (so I can wear the cord around my neck with the meter sitting in a pocket when not using it. 3. Analogue - I'm such a Luddite but I like to be able to read off the aperture/shutterspeed combos as it's fast and efficient. 4. Good low-light sensitivity. Any suggestions please? The little Gossen Digisix and Digiflash. They give you #1, #2 and #4, plus a ring where you can read off aperture/shutter speed combination after setting the meter's LV reading, like on a traditional Weston or Sekonic. You just have to grit your teeth and read the LV from a digital display rather than a needle on an analogue scale. The only problem is unpredictable battery life: but it's not hard to carry a spare 2032. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StS Posted September 21, 2014 Share #32 Posted September 21, 2014 不管黑猫白猫抓到 老鼠就是好猫. (Regardless, whether black cat or white cat, when she is mousing, it is already a good cat - attributed to Deng Xiaoping) The Digisix and Digiflash have in my view the disadvantage, that they can't be switched off, one needs to take the batteries out. Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted September 21, 2014 Share #33 Posted September 21, 2014 不管黑猫白猫抓到 老鼠就是好猫.(Regardless, whether black cat or white cat, when she is mousing, it is already a good cat - attributed to Deng Xiaoping) That statement put him in prison for over 10 years! The appeal for me of the 398A is that it is relatively small, well made and doesn't take a battery. I've always thought it a bit odd using a handmade mechanical camera with an electronic, digital meter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted September 21, 2014 Share #34 Posted September 21, 2014 Anyone using studio strobes. For a given flash intensity, you adjust exposure using the aperture rather than the shutter dial. The 308 is primarily designed as a flash meter. Thank you for explaining that. And thanks for everyone taking the time to offer advice. Food for thought. Much appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StS Posted September 22, 2014 Share #35 Posted September 22, 2014 That statement put him in prison for over 10 years! ...and is a standard line in China these days. The appeal for me of the 398A is that it is relatively small, well made and doesn't take a battery. I've always thought it a bit odd using a handmade mechanical camera with an electronic, digital meter. I was about to buy a 398A but recognized, I would have needed the reading glasses to use it. Maybe I should have a look again now with varifocals... Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted September 22, 2014 Share #36 Posted September 22, 2014 I was about to buy a 398A but recognized, I would have needed the reading glasses to use it. Maybe I should have a look again now with varifocals... Stefan Ah, yes. I'm get the bigger iPhone for similar reasons! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted September 22, 2014 Share #37 Posted September 22, 2014 Hello John, I agree that there are a number of advantages with using the Seconic 398A. Do you find the sensitivity of EV4 @ ISO100/DIN21 to be a limiting factor? I ask this because I personally find a meter more necessary in lower light situations than in better illuminated circumstances. My other reservation is the measuring needle which may be more shock sensitive than its digital counterpart. Otherwise, Analog meters have the advantage that they often come with more "Full Information Dials" where many combinations or/& alternatives can be seen simultaneously. As is the situation with the Sekonic 398A & a number of other meters. Best Regards, Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted September 22, 2014 Share #38 Posted September 22, 2014 No, not really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gberger Posted September 22, 2014 Share #39 Posted September 22, 2014 I've been through almost every light meter widely available since 1940 when I started using my Dad's GE that he used for his 8mm movie camera. My favorites (in no order of preference) were the Norwood Director, The Weston Master V, and the various Minoltas. What cameras did I use with these meters over time? My first Argus C3, then my Leica IIIc, M4, M5, M6, M7 - - - plus my Wife's Rollei, 4x5 Speed Graphic, Hassy, and (finally!!) her Leicas 6 and 7. I finally settled on the Sekonic 308 as the best combination of accurate and repeatability readings for both incident and reflective measurements, world-wide battery availability (an Alkalide AA), compactness, durability, and quick readouts. I've never been sorry - - and my old Norwood Director remains comfortably on the shelf, along with my Weston Master V. (sold the Minoltas) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted September 22, 2014 Share #40 Posted September 22, 2014 A bit of useless trivia - flash meters that have a PC connection can read flashbulb illumination correctly, but only by using the PC cord. -- The old man with cases of bulbs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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