Is the T made for M users?

[lct]

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According to Sean Reid:

 

- The T does not make use of its 6-bit code reading abilities (via the M adapter) to provide automatic correction of color drift and luminance vignetting for RF lenses, so far.

 

- In terms of very fine detail, pics from the T can't quite match pictures from a camera with no AA filter (such as the Ricoh GXR Mount A 12).

 

- With a fast SD card (8 GB, Sandisk Extreme Pro 95 MB/s), the T takes about 1.5 seconds to start up.

 

- Review images after exposure cannot currently be turned off and remains locked on that image for about a half-second.

 

Any confirmation or infirmation?

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[jaapv]

It will make a good backup to the M.

I think the autoreview is there to camouflage EVF lag (I do something similar on my M)

[Lightwrangler]

- In terms of very fine detail, pics from the T can't quite match pictures from a camera with no AA filter (such as the Ricoh GXR Mount A 12).

 

Any confirmation or infirmation?

 

Jono Slack reports the T does not have an AA filter.

 

Who's right?

 

Mike

[jaapv]

Well, my money is on Jono

[papimuzo]

Sean Reid has corrected his article after getting info from Leica senior engineers that the T hasn't AA filter.

OTOH Jono and Sean have transmitted their claims on improvements needed for the definitive firmware before the selling time...

[doolittle]

My guess too is that Jono is correct that T has no AA filter.

However I doubt that the T has micro lenses like the Ricoh optimised for M lenses.

So I don't think that the T is made for M users, but they will provide an adapter to let you use your M lenses.

It will be interesting to see results of M and ltm lenses used on the camera, I am guessing results will be mixed.

[biglouis]

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Jono Slack reports the T does not have an AA filter.

 

Who's right?

 

Mike

 

Thanks for clearing that up. I was going to ask the same question. Definitely a plus for the T as I have noticed a considerable difference in image sharpness in using my Ricoh GR versus other cameras (it has no AA filter).

[rscheffler]

From my understanding, offset microlenses are more a benefit for optimizing edge illumination and possibly reducing edge colour shift. Higher pixel density also contributes to edge colour shift.

 

Edge smearing, often seen when RF lenses are adapted to other systems, is more a problem of the thickness of the 'stack' above the sensor, which would normally include the AA filter and cover glass.

 

Without an AA filter, there is hope that the T's sensor configuration will work well with the more challenging wide angle RF lenses by not causing edge smearing, as seen with many of the NEX-type cameras, the a7 models, etc. It will be even more promising if the cover glass is thinner than that found on the NEXes and Fujis. The GXR's M module, which was also without AA filter, was about the only option I've tried so far that appeared to contribute no noticeable camera-induced image degradation...

 

If I've read the initial reviews correctly, the T also doesn't incorporate a vibrating sensor cleaning option, which may keep the 'stack' thinner.

 

But the problem with every APS-C option for M users is lens options at the wider end of the spectrum. If a lens such as the CV15/4.5 works well on the T, as it did on the GXR, I might be tempted by the T...

[JeTexas]

It's only for the M users if they actually deliver the M adapters. If they're as slow as they were with the R adapters, we'll all be out of luck for the next year since there's no third-party alternatives for the new mount.

[a.j.z]

Might have been interesting if the A7 would not be there, but now if I would buy a backup for my M9 I rather would get the Sony due to full format (and it even costs less). I like to shoot wide angle and thus the 1.5 crop is not appealing.

[rscheffler]

Might have been interesting if the A7 would not be there, but now if I would buy a backup for my M9 I rather would get the Sony due to full format (and it even costs less). I like to shoot wide angle and thus the 1.5 crop is not appealing.

 

Well, if it's a back up in order to use your wide angle M lenses, then you might be fairly disappointed with the a7 due to edge smearing induced by the thickness of the glass over the sensor. If it's to use with the native FE mount lenses, then you should be fine, once they start shipping wide angle lenses for it.

 

As for the M adapter... even if Leica is late shipping it, there will without doubt be a number of options from the usual 3rd party adapter suppliers of varying degree of quality and price.

[a.j.z]

Well, if it's a back up in order to use your wide angle M lenses, then you might be fairly disappointed with the a7 due to edge smearing induced by the thickness of the glass over the sensor. If it's to use with the native FE mount lenses, then you should be fine, once they start shipping wide angle lenses for it.

 

As for the M adapter... even if Leica is late shipping it, there will without doubt be a number of options from the usual 3rd party adapter suppliers of varying degree of quality and price.

 

You can find very nice wide angle lens photos with the A7 on this forum and you can cut off quite a lot of the edges and still have a wider angle than on a 1.5 crop cam.

[UliWer]

According to Sean Reid:

 

- The T does not make use of its 6-bit code reading abilities (via the M adapter) to provide automatic correction of color drift and luminance vignetting for RF lenses, so far.

 

- In terms of very fine detail, pics from the T can't quite match pictures from a camera with no AA filter (such as the Ricoh GXR Mount A 12).

 

...

 

Having read Reid's test my impression is that even without in-camera correction color drift is much less a problem for the T sensor as we know it from the different M-sensors - even the M8 had this problem. I expected bigger problems.

 

I could not follow Reid's statement that the files from the T didn't match the Ricoh GXR Mount A 12 results - in the center croppings. Perhaps my eyes are too bad, but I could not see the difference he descibes - for the center. I am often intrigued that his comparisons with equal lenses show so much difference in magnification, so this might irritate my perception.

Though in the corners the Ricoh results were very clearly better than the those from the T (with a Voigtländer Skopar f/4/21mm). Obviously the Ricoh sensor has been opitimized for the M-lenses, which the T-sensor is not.

 

Though the results shown by Reid from the T-Summicron - epecially in the corners - were not too good. I expected much more.

[rscheffler]

You can find very nice wide angle lens photos with the A7 on this forum and you can cut off quite a lot of the edges and still have a wider angle than on a 1.5 crop cam.

 

It's definitely possible to create aesthetically pleasing images with wide M glass on the a7/a7R, especially at screen resolution. It's going to depend on your technical expectations and the type of subject matter you prefer to photograph whether or not the combination will be acceptable, along with some cropping.

 

My experience after testing about a couple dozen rangefinder lenses on the a7R was that if you're paying for M glass, you're going to get the best results on an M camera. Thus far, few alternatives to Leica M have shown promise. The GXR was one that worked, though had other limitations/frustrations. We have yet to see full-rez adapted M lens examples from the T, but Jono's observations hold promise. That said, UliWer's comment above about the T vs. the GXR causes me to temper my expectations.

 

Likely my criteria is different than yours. For me, the main consideration is whether the camera will introduce image degradation when used with M lenses. It's why I tested the a7 and a7R, because I was considering them for the same reasons as you - an M9 backup/alternative. Instead I bit the bullet and got an M240, making the M9 the backup.

[rscheffler]

I could not follow Reid's statement that the files from the T didn't match the Ricoh GXR Mount A 12 results - in the center croppings. Perhaps my eyes are too bad, but I could not see the difference he descibes - for the center. I am often intrigued that his comparisons with equal lenses show so much difference in magnification, so this might irritate my perception.

Though in the corners the Ricoh results were very clearly better than the those from the T (with a Voigtländer Skopar f/4/21mm). Obviously the Ricoh sensor has been opitimized for the M-lenses, which the T-sensor is not.

 

Thanks for this, as I'm not a subscriber...

 

It would be disappointing if the T's sensor doesn't mesh well with UWA RF lenses... since you need those in order to get a reasonable wide on APS-C.

 

I believe Ricoh mentions offset microlenses but are unclear as to what, if any other rangefinder lens optimization they've done, other than remove the AA filter. I'm not of the impression offset microlenses have a significant influence on edge sharpness. Rather it improves peripheral illumination and reduces edge colour smear. It's the thickness of the sensor stack that influences edge image smear and the omission of the AA filter will help. For M cameras Leica further optimizes the sensor by reducing the cover glass to as thin as reasonably possible. If the T smears more than the GXR, then perhaps the T's sensor glass thickness is a factor? Another variable could be the M adapter, which the GXR doesn't require. But usually an adapter problem results in inconsistent corner sharpness...

 

Looking forward to seeing more reviews with adapted lenses and high-rez files...

[UliWer]

...

Looking forward to seeing more reviews with adapted lenses and high-rez files...

 

Yes.

 

I'd like to try a different answer to the question, wether the T is made for M users.

 

The differences in sensor size resulting in a big reduction of angle of view for the smaller sensor doesn't qualify any APS-C camera for users of lenses made for full size format. You may play around adapting this or that, but there is not too much sense in spending large sums on M lenses to "misuse" them on an APS-C-sensor. You are very limited with wide angles and you can achieve the same "prolongation" effect you get with longer lenses just by cropping your M-files.

 

I expected the new T to be the first step towards a new "post-M" system. The large mount with intelligent adapters indicates the way one could look for. If one compares the dimensions of the T to the present M one could imagine a body with optical or hybrid viewfinder, touchscreen display etc. and approximately the same size as the present M - with full frame sensor. You could have both ways: a new system with autofocus lenses and still using your M-lenses.

 

Though from what I have seen yet - very little - I am not really convinced. Even if M-lenses do not cause extreme problems (as with the A7), they don't seem really qualified for a sensor which is not made for them. On the other hand new lenses made for the new sensor with less problems of flat light angles, do not seem to produce much better results. It is just guessing, as I havn't seen any comparisons, but I'd say the new T-Summicron is in the same league as the 35mm M-Summarit, perhaps the Summarit is better - with half an f-stop less. Unfortunately Leica does not publish any MTF-graphs for the new T-lenses - why not? The T-Summicron which is produced in Japan for cost reduction has the same price as the M-Summarit.

 

Probably it's too early to come to a conclusion - but at the moment I stay reluctant to believe that a new system with a much larger mount is a way to better optical results without even higher prices and at the same time a chance for using your M-lenses without compromising on the quality of the results.

[NZDavid]

No, it is an entirely different concept, based on a touchscreen interface. You will be able to use M lenses but the while feel of the camera will be different.

[lct]

[...] Obviously the Ricoh sensor has been opitimized for the M-lenses, which the T-sensor is not. [...]

This answers my question pretty well i'm afraid... That a Leica body can be less optimized for Leica lenses than a Ricoh body is frankly beyond me.

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[-ph-]

How does one know that the M lenses don't work well with the T sensor, when all testers, as far as they could test so far where very happy with that combination?

 

Peter

[wattsy]

No, it is an entirely different concept, based on a touchscreen interface. You will be able to use M lenses but the while feel of the camera will be different.

 

Yes, it doesn't seem that far removed from the idea of mounting an M lens on an iPhone. An idea I fancy only marginally less than using an M lens with this new camera.