timde Posted June 24, 2014 Share #261 Posted June 24, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Btw does this out of house firmware development for the M-E and M-M actually mean that Leica is now selling camera's for which they can no longer fix firmware bugs? They should be able to but any bugs they have might not be worth fixing. Does proper Auto-iso functionality in manual mode really take years to program? No, but it can take a long time to decide how it should work, or even if it is broken at all. That behaviour, or a variation of it, is common with most digital cameras I have used and I think they put priority on getting a correct exposure rather than observing the selected shutter-speed/range. In some cases that might be desired behaviour, some cases perhaps not. Anyway, Auto-iso and manual-mode, do you see the problem with that ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Hi timde, Take a look here New Firmware on May 24th. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mirekti Posted June 24, 2014 Share #262 Posted June 24, 2014 Anyway, Auto-iso and manual-mode, do you see the problem with that ;-) No if I had an ISO button, or knew the current value. As of now it shows Auto, and ISO set to... ...who can remember it ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted June 24, 2014 Share #263 Posted June 24, 2014 Anyway, Auto-iso and manual-mode, do you see the problem with that ;-) Oh yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chmilar Posted June 24, 2014 Share #264 Posted June 24, 2014 Anyway, Auto-iso and manual-mode, do you see the problem with that ;-) If anything, it is a problem of terminology, ie. the problem is not the auto-iso mechanism, but in calling the mode "manual-mode". The M240 has four exposure modes. In all of them, the aperture is set manually, and the camera has no way to change the aperture setting. 1) Fully "manual" mode. Operator sets ISO and shutter speed. Camera sets nothing. (Operator is fully responsible for correct exposure.) 2) Operator sets ISO. Camera controls shutter speed. 3) Operator sets shutter speed. Camera controls ISO. 4) Camera controls both shutter speed and ISO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pieterpronk Posted June 24, 2014 Share #265 Posted June 24, 2014 the wait will be worth it. Good. Whining about firmware updates is boring and tiring work, but if we didn't, Leica would never have released a firmware, let alone one that is worth the wait. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted June 24, 2014 Share #266 Posted June 24, 2014 Actually I thought this whole in or out of house software development story was finally put to rest with the M240, where Leica supposedly could finally take all responsibility itself for firmware updates. 1. Did it really get better with the M240? That would seem logical, but I don't think so. I own the M240 and I think it is a very solid camera. Much improved from the M9. I do get lock-ups with the EVF in hot environments. This should be fixed in the new firmware. It is big problem when using the EVF. I'm not sure it is a software bug as much as it is the temp. sensor being set too low. To solve this, I just shoot with auto-sleep mode off. Beta testers Last August found this and were very vocal about it. I, finally just stopped using the EVF until it was suggested to turn off auto sleep. I shot over 5,000 images for that beta over 24 days and had to just stop using the EVF except with my WATE. 2. Are you sure the firmware of the Leica T is "inhouse? They always said so about the M240, but I kinda doubt it is the case with the Leica T. No. But, from the copyright and protective information filing explained by Leica recently, it appeared that Leica engineers developed the concepts used by the camera, at least. I assumed from there, they designed the software. Neither is it important whether Leica actually hires a team of beta-testers or just randomly selects a group from its own customer-base, if Leica can just deliver the goods. I agree that the result is what is important. I also believe that the beta testing involving actual users is a good process. It allows dozens of fiddly hands to cover sets of actions that probably would not be tested by the engineers themselves. Many testers can also quickly zoom in on and determine the instances that cause the firmware to fail. Also, it puts the FW in the hands of customers that make suggestions as to how they want the camera to work. It demonstrates the importance Leica actually pays to its customer's concerns. Anyway, Leica, we love you. We don't really care too much how you do it. If you prefer a highly illogical way to do it, that's fine as well... but get your firmware updating in gear and the bugs fixed. Does proper Auto-iso functionality in manual mode really take years to program? First of all, The logic of the Auto ISO is involved in several interconnected functions and therefore, is more complicated to implement than I realized myself. Auto ISO now functions with an important new feature as well, that we can't discuss. So, on one hand implementing Auto ISO (which I use) is complex, but on the other hand I agree that taking over a year to get it out is not satisfactory. But, this gets back to my point of where Leica has come from and where they are now. The M240 is now probably 4-5 years old from the viewpoint of the Leica engineers (when they started it). In that time Leica has put out new lenses, PAS, the T, and has undergone a massive relocation. I imagine Leica now is becoming more capable, and has hired and trained more workers in that time, including Dieter, who has now graduated from college. I don't know this for a fact, but I imagine Leica is just getting caught up and organized now from the relocation and the introduction of the T. I say this because of how responsive the beta testing is going. Let's wait and see how the general release of this FW goes and wait and see if, maybe another FW upgrade is in the works, as well. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted June 24, 2014 Share #267 Posted June 24, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I for one would be happy, just let me say I want it all and I want it NOW!!! :D You will get what you want when they get it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 24, 2014 Share #268 Posted June 24, 2014 3) Operator sets shutter speed. Camera controls ISO... That's what auto iso in manual mode should allow if it were implemented in the M240, which is not the case so far. Auto iso in manual mode means that we choose aperture and shutter speed manually while the camera selects isos automatically. The camera knows that my maximum sensitivity is 3200 iso for instance then when i chose aperture and shutter speed manually, the camera will select isos between 200 and 3200 automatically. That's how my X-E2 works at least. To avoid blown highlights or crushing shadows suffice it to lock AE by half pressing the shutter release. No problem at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dant Posted June 24, 2014 Share #269 Posted June 24, 2014 Good. Whining about firmware updates is boring and tiring work, but if we didn't, Leica would never have released a firmware, let alone one that is worth the wait. That is sad. you would think a company like Leica would be on the forefront of things and not a lagger depending on outcries. Is it worth upgrading the software? What will I see from it? I downloaded Fuji one time and it had bugs that made it less desirable than the original. After that I am in no rush. M240 is producing very well as is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicolaz Posted June 25, 2014 Share #270 Posted June 25, 2014 They could have released 2/3 firmwares during these months and everybody would be happy for either the fix or the fact that Leica is really on top of it. Baby steps: everybody wants the auto ISO? Give them that damn auto ISO and release a firmware for that!! I don't understand the logic behind "we have to fix ALL issues in the next firmware.. now or never". I would call everything is happening lack of communication if it was a $500 camera. On a $6000 camera I call it lack of respect. My Canon can take 13 consecutive shots and a my other $6000 camera (known as minimalist camera with simple electronic) freezes after 3 shots. I'm not pissed that it freezes (bug happens: absolutely normal) I'm more concerned about the fact that this is not fixed yet. This makes me thing the Leica T fixes will come when sensors will be curves.. Nicola Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulsydaus Posted June 25, 2014 Share #271 Posted June 25, 2014 Gee I really hope Leica get this new firmware right. Regarding the complexity of implementing auto ISO, there are all manor of design and automation tools available now (Model Based Design, Auto Code Generators and Verifiers) that this shouldn't be an issue on something as simple as the M240. Regarding the old firmware like the M9, I'm sure Leica wrote contracts to receive full handover of source and descriptive manuals from the contract. They'd be stupid not too. It is simply a project management decision to decide if or who does the work... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted June 25, 2014 Share #272 Posted June 25, 2014 They could have released 2/3 firmwares during these months and everybody would be happy for either the fix or the fact that Leica is really on top of it. Baby steps: everybody wants the auto ISO? Give them that damn auto ISO and release a firmware for that!! I don't understand the logic behind "we have to fix ALL issues in the next firmware.. now or never". I would call everything is happening lack of communication if it was a $500 camera. On a $6000 camera I call it lack of respect. My Canon can take 13 consecutive shots and a my other $6000 camera (known as minimalist camera with simple electronic) freezes after 3 shots. I'm not pissed that it freezes (bug happens: absolutely normal) I'm more concerned about the fact that this is not fixed yet. This makes me thing the Leica T fixes will come when sensors will be curves.. Nicola I agree totally Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalHeMan Posted June 25, 2014 Share #273 Posted June 25, 2014 You will get what you want when they get it. Or rather, you will get what they want you to have when they want you to have it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 25, 2014 Share #274 Posted June 25, 2014 t. This makes me thing the Leica T fixes will come when sensors will be curves.. Nicola I don't think Leica will be that quick, those are available right now..... Sony's New Curved CMOS Sensor Could Mean Better Images & Sharper, Faster Lenses Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdannn Posted June 25, 2014 Share #275 Posted June 25, 2014 I agree totally +1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted June 25, 2014 Share #276 Posted June 25, 2014 A pity Sony didn't make the curved sensor circular. When they are flexible and adjust to the lens i would like to see them in a new Leica. WRT more frequent firmware updates - we could then start to bitch about too many changes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdekker Posted June 25, 2014 Share #277 Posted June 25, 2014 Availability of the new M240 is now confirmed for 30 June by the Dutch Leica Shop on their Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/fotohenny.hoogeveen?hc_location=timeline Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exodies Posted June 25, 2014 Share #278 Posted June 25, 2014 30th of June? That's a bit bloody soon. I've hardly got used to the old firmware's idiosyncracys. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 25, 2014 Share #279 Posted June 25, 2014 The information is correct as far as I know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdekker Posted June 25, 2014 Share #280 Posted June 25, 2014 This is the Leica M240 firmware and not a new camera off course ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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