rafael_macia Posted March 28, 2014 Share #1 Posted March 28, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I truly dislike the lack of a frame selector. Having to put on another lens to see frame lines is a big mistake in the design of the M. For one, one has the problem of dust entering, with frequent lens changes. Also having to tap the shutter button to activate the lines of the lens being used is annoying. Rangefinder systems have always said to me; "This is your constant view .... .72, . 58, .85 , etc.. If you put this lens on .... this will be your view." I enjoyed the choices in planning a shot. That's gone with the M. Now I have to put on the lens to see the new view. Guessing is the new frame selector. Big design mistake ! IMHO...R I am glad I kept the M9P! ps. love the live view, for its convenience, and accuracy, love the M battery capacity. Rafael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Hi rafael_macia, Take a look here Eliminating the frame selector was a Huge mistake. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
chris_tribble Posted March 28, 2014 Share #2 Posted March 28, 2014 Hmmm - not been an issue for me. Some days I know I'm going to be working 28 on one body and 50 on the other. Some days it's 35 only. Some days it's one job an I know 90 will be all I need. Never missed the frame selector. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tookaphotoof Posted March 28, 2014 Share #3 Posted March 28, 2014 Never used them on my film bodies and neither have I used it on the M8.2 I had, so I probably won't miss it on the new M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted March 28, 2014 Share #4 Posted March 28, 2014 I don't really miss it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted March 28, 2014 Share #5 Posted March 28, 2014 I'm on your side, Rafael. The frame preview feature has always been both uniquely Leica and a feature I've used regularly. Sorry to see it go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chito Posted March 28, 2014 Share #6 Posted March 28, 2014 I've only used a 50mm on my M240 and I've never used another rangefinder. I was curious to see the other framelines and I detached the lens while the camera was on (not live view of course) and I saw the 35mm frame lines (I think those were the 35mm). I hope that it wasn't a bonehead move. I'm interested in a 28mm but I really have no idea how the frame lines look like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 28, 2014 Share #7 Posted March 28, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm interested in a 28mm but I really have no idea how the frame lines look like. The frame lever omission on the new M is a particular disadvantage IMO for new users, both for immediate shooting as well as future lens purchase decisions. Long time users can estimate frames quite easily with lots of practice, but many (including me) still would prefer having the lever. I use the M as well as the M8.2, and the frame line 'crop differences' for the latter require different memory adjustments. At least both cameras use 2m distance optimization, which for my needs is ideal. My guess is that the decision to eliminate the lever related to costs of weather sealing, not just the mechanism itself. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 28, 2014 Share #8 Posted March 28, 2014 Removing the lever is to remove one possible source of water ingress, so if you are trying to weather seal the camera, it's one less headache. For Chito, the 28mm frame is pretty much everything you can see in the viewfinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 28, 2014 Share #9 Posted March 28, 2014 For Chito, the 28mm frame is pretty much everything you can see in the viewfinder. Probably, but glass wearers see things differently, etc. When a new lens might cost $4000+, it's nice to experiment in advance for comfort purposes. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 28, 2014 Share #10 Posted March 28, 2014 Removing the lever is to remove one possible source of water ingress, so if you are trying to weather seal the camera, it's one less headache. Our posts crossed paths. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted March 28, 2014 Share #11 Posted March 28, 2014 I don't miss the frame select lever, but everyone uses their camera in different ways so I can understand that some might want to preview different lens options. I might miss it rather more, however, if it gave anything like a reasonable view of the true frame. I treat the frames as a very very approximate view of the final image, both up and down and side to side - much too approximate to rely on. In my ideal world, the frames would simply be computed displays in a hybrid finder showing the exact limits of the image at the focus distance - no moving mechanical frame cut outs illuminated by little light bulbs hidden in the top of my camera. (C'est magnifique mechanical engineering, mais ce n'est pas la usability guerre.) Ah well, in my ideal world....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted March 28, 2014 Share #12 Posted March 28, 2014 In my ideal world, the frames would simply be computed displays in a hybrid finder showing the exact limits of the image at the focus distance - no moving mechanical frame cut outs illuminated by little light bulbs hidden in the top of my camera. (C'est magnifique mechanical engineering, mais ce n'est pas la usability guerre.)Ah well, in my ideal world....... That, Dr. Evil, has already come to pass. Just not at Leica. I will comment that the implementation has its own drawbacks, such as that a hybrid finder wants your eyes to focus on the LED surface rather than the subject (or to focus on both at the same time). Leica framelines are sufficiently indistinct that you look like through them. But the big plus of a hybrid is that you can switch into EVF instantly for ultra-precise framing. Dante Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 28, 2014 Share #13 Posted March 28, 2014 I've never used it on my film M (well, I did use it on the M3 with a Leicameter because the 90mm frame lines marked the metering area). It should be easy to visualise what lens you'd need for a given photo - if you really can't then I'd suggest buying a cheap Russian Helios multi finder to stick in the flash shoe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 28, 2014 Share #14 Posted March 28, 2014 I can understand the wish for a frameline selector lever to judge the field of view (not that I ever used it), but it is a mistake to use it for a buying decision for a lens. That is not about the field of view, but about the perspective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Thompson Posted March 28, 2014 Share #15 Posted March 28, 2014 Try shooting with eyeglasses. Anything below the 50 lines are completely invisible. You get used to it, even with a 28 or 21. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted March 28, 2014 Share #16 Posted March 28, 2014 I only use it only very occasionally on the M9/Monochrom as I think that I'm now fairly good at picking the coverage of a lens within the finder's range of 28-135mm. It's not too difficult to visualise from memory where any of the framelines would sit in the viewfinder. There have been times though where I would have liked them on the M240. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted March 29, 2014 Share #17 Posted March 29, 2014 I'm on your side, Rafael. The frame preview feature has always been both uniquely Leica and a feature I've used regularly. Sorry to see it go. +1. The preview selector is a feature that I use on my film M bodies - not all the time, but it is nice to have when you want/need it. Too bad that they didn't elect to put it on the M 240 - it will be missed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 29, 2014 Share #18 Posted March 29, 2014 ….but it is a mistake to use it for a buying decision for a lens. That is not about the field of view, but about the perspective. If one stands in one spot, it's about field of view. Otherwise, one can move all over the placed to learn about perspective with any given lens. I of course wouldn't use the frame selector as the key factor for lens selection, but it helps to have one to judge framing from ANY GIVEN location, which doesn't change perspective…except maybe changing one's perspective about the wisdom of spending money on another lens. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrogers Posted March 29, 2014 Share #19 Posted March 29, 2014 I've regularly used the frame line lever on all my Leicas, and before getting the M was wondering why Leica would eliminate it. I've used my new M pretty heavily over the past month, and haven't had a single issue with the frame lever being gone. I honestly expected to miss it more than I do. I'll be interested to see how I feel a year from now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafael_macia Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share #20 Posted March 29, 2014 I can understand the wish for a frameline selector lever to judge the field of view (not that I ever used it), but it is a mistake to use it for a buying decision for a lens. That is not about the field of view, but about the perspective. I agree, that no one should buy, or not buy a lens, based on if their camera has a frame selector. I have all the lenses I need so that is not an issue. The frame selector, .....on M's since 1954, was used and liked by some, not all Leica M users. I think it was a mistake to eliminate it. That's all I am saying. Field of view and perspective ? ........ I don't know about that ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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