Purple cast on M's files.

[jip]

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Keep getting purple cast or magenta cast on my M files simply adjusting the white balance towards green doesn't help, I'm wondering how and when this can be solved in firmware(?!)

 

If someone has advice I'd like to hear it, I'm using the latest version of Lightroom 5.

 

I'm usually really patient with new camera files because you simply have to get used to them, but it's starting to annoy me.

[01af]

Yes, the colour rendition of the M (Typ 240) is just terrible. However the problem is not the hardware (sensor, Bayer filter) but firmware and camera profiles. To fix the issue, you need to create your own camera profile(s). If you're using Adobe products (Bridge/Photoshop/Camera Raw or Lightroom) then you'll need an X-Rite (formerly GretagMacbeth) ColorChecker and the Adobe DNG Profile Editor (Mac/Win).

 

For an immediate (temporary) quick-and-dirty fix with Camera Raw or Lightroom, go to the Camera Calibration settings pane and adjust the RGB primaries. Push Red Hue a bit towards yellow (+10 .. +20) and reduce Red Saturation (-5 .. -15). Reducing Blue Hue (-10 .. -25) and Blue Saturation (-5 .. -15) probably will improve things even further. Also reduce overall Saturation in the Basic settings pane (-5 .. -10).

[mirekti]

Do you believe Leica will work further on the color improvement? I got an impression from this forum, the colors were fine to most of the testers, and that made me think there won't be much done in regards to colors in future.

 

There's an embedded profile one could choose in LR. Could Leica make this profile better? I mean, isn't that a profile Leica should adopt to their own firmware and 3rd party raw tool so it all works together?

 

Lastly, could someone share the profiles, please? Preferably with the IR filters on the lens while making them. Of course, I am willing to pay a resonable amount of money for it.

[01af]

Do you believe Leica will work further on the color improvement?

I wish—but I don't believe they will.

 

 

I got an impression from this forum, the colors were fine to most of the testers ...

Frankly, I'm afraid most testers simply cannot tell good colour rendition from bad colour rendition. Too many people appreciate gaudy and oversaturated colours. And then, the perception of a camera profile's quality (or lack thereof) also depends on the subject. In some cases, even a poor profile will appear good enough; in others, it will jump right out at you.

 

 

... and that made me think there won't be much done in regards to colors in future.

That's what I think, too.

 

 

There's an embedded profile one could choose in Lightroom. Could Leica make this profile better?

Sure they could—in theory. But in practice, they'd have to understand that there is a problem with colour rendition in the first place ... and then, they'd have to find a person familiar with firmware development and camera profiles who isn't colour-blind to fix it.

[jaapv]

Try using the built-in grey card function.

[01af]

Try using the built-in grey card function.

This will help with white balance only but not with the camera's fundamental colour rendition shortcomings.

 

Umm—wait a minute. In the embedded profile, both the blue and the red primaries are skewed towards magenta. Maybe that's a deliberate, albeit ill-advised attempt to expand the camera's colour gamut!? Just speculating ...

[jaapv]

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True, but it does help with a magenta cast. At least you have a decent starting point. I don't disagree, though. A good individual profile is the way to go.

[Dikaiosune01]

I noticed the purple cast problem too. Although for me, it is more blue than purple, and only in mixed lighting situations.

 

I do think having the grey card helps a fair bit as does the colour checker. However, according to the forums, it also has to do with it's AA filter. The AA filter is weaker than it was on the M9, A little closer to the M8 than the M9. Many others have suggested using a UV IR Cut filter to negate the purple and blue. I recently purchased UV IR filters, and am in the process of testing it out for myself.

 

If you read teh following thread, you can follow how others tested this out and their results.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m-type-240/310048-m240-color-test-oh-oh.html

[rirakuma]

Hi jip, could you post some samples of the purple cast you mentioned? If its just on black synthetics you could try desaturate purple and magenta as most scenes don't have many of those.

[Rick]

Hi Jip - I get fantastic color from my M240. I was just going through some pictures with skin tones from a trip in September in Europe. I am so happy with the color. I do increase red primary tint and desaturate... and, I decrease blue tint and desaturate. The result is just amazing color. I generally don't have problems with purple cast like you state. Don't be frustrated... I can help if, you post a DNG of what you are describing. M240 color is amazing.

 

Rick

[wlaidlaw]

The colours of the output of the M240 seem to be much more lens sensitive than the M9. Using Zeiss Contax and ZM lenses, I get slightly over-saturated greens and blues before correction. The 28 Summicron, MATE and 35 Summilux ASPH outdoors give a slight but noticeable magenta cast. I have saved various lens/camera profiles in Capture One to correct this, made up on an ad hoc basis.

 

Sadly it is very difficult to make your own ICC profiles from a Gretag Macbeth chart, which Capture One needs, as against the DCP profiles for LR, which are very easy to make. I tried making dual illuminance DCP profiles and then converting them to ICC by using a DCP to ICC converter but the results were terrible. I have been sending Phase One M240 DNG’s and I think the profile in the latest version 7.1.5 might just be a tiny fraction better. At least GPS is working properly now on C1 - see below.

 

Wilson

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[pico]

This thread is driving me crazy.

 

Purple is not a color; it is more an impression, and I suspect there are language and cultural differences regarding purple. The issue is complicated by RGB limitations.

 

We need some examples with each post.

[wlaidlaw]

This thread is driving me crazy.

 

Purple is not a color; it is more an impression, and I suspect there are language and cultural differences regarding purple. The issue is complicated by RGB limitations.

 

We need some examples with each post.

 

Pico,

 

I think the size limitations and the colour profile space of the forum plus the colour space of your browser and calibration of screen, would add so many variables that posting an example would be meaningless, unless the colour cast was very gross. I think any colour casts from M240 images in my experience are very slight and unless again you have a standard for how you controlled the white balance at the time of taking the image, meaningless.

 

For example I took a whole lot of shots of the interior of the Glydebourne Opera theatre a couple of weeks ago, where as I forgot to take a grey card with me, I therefore took on AWB. If you look below, you will see that they have come out with a very noticeable yellow cast. Given the difficulty of interior stage/proscenium lighting, would I have expected AWB to work - probably not. This is not therefore a colour cast fault of the camera, it is an inability of the AWB to cope with a difficult situation. It is so easy to correct with an eye-dropper that it is not a big problem.

 

The point I made earlier is that changing lens makes on the M240 seems to need a new white balance, whereas on the M9, you could get away without resetting. I think AWB is still work in progress on the M240 and for example is nothing like as good as my Olympus EP-5, where AWB works 95%+ of the time.

 

Wilson

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[pico]

I think the size limitations and the colour profile space of the forum plus the colour space of your browser and calibration of screen, would add so many variables that posting an example would be meaningless, unless the colour cast was very gross.

 

You are right, Wilson, although I do not understand what you mean by the colour space of the forum.

[wlaidlaw]

You are right, Wilson, although I do not understand what you mean by the colour space of the forum.

 

Pico,

 

Let’s say I exported and sent to the forum, a JPEG with ECI-V4 set as its colour space, which is one I commonly use. Then the forum may well remove this colour space and send it out from their server as say sRGB or maybe Adobe RGB(1998). Depending on which browser you use, some will take notice of the original colour space of the image, some don’t apply any colour space at all and some use sRGB.

 

Wilson

[mirekti]

M240 color is amazing.

 

 

 

I am miles away from this statement. I am awaiting the UV/IR cut filters, and color checker so I'll see whether this helps.

[pieterpronk]

To be honest, the best that can be said about the M is that its dng files can be post processed a lot, ie they are very mendable.

But the color just isn't that good and indeed needs all the mendability it has.

 

Color is hard to pinpoint, but the amount of people employing all kinds of work around to get the colors they like, does seem to indicate the colors of the M are a work in progress for users and hopefully for Leica still.

[pico]

Pico,

 

 

 

Let’s say I exported and sent to the forum, a JPEG with ECI-V4 set as its colour space, which is one I commonly use. Then the forum may well remove this colour space and send it out from their server as say sRGB or maybe Adobe RGB(1998). Depending on which browser you use, some will take notice of the original colour space of the image, some don’t apply any colour space at all and some use sRGB.

 

 

I should delve into various renditions through so many browsers, however given the short horizon of my lifetime I must beg off.

 

This digital stuff is not for me.

 

Peace

Pico

[Rick]

To be honest, the best that can be said about the M is that its dng files can be post processed a lot, ie they are very mendable.

But the color just isn't that good and indeed needs all the mendability it has.

 

Color is hard to pinpoint, but the amount of people employing all kinds of work around to get the colors they like, does seem to indicate the colors of the M are a work in progress for users and hopefully for Leica still.

 

I am miles away from all of this. The M color is very good as is and when needed takes little effort, as all cameras do. I really don't agree that there is some "amount of people employing all kinds of work arounds."

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[lct]

Never got those color issues with current firmware. My understanding is that most LUF members are using Adobe raw converters so i wonder if it may come from that. When i received the M240 i tried LR4 then and noticed that it showed some red and magenta oversaturation. Is it still the same with LR5 and current ACR version i don't know but i seem to be able to recognize them only by their red rendition. Here for instance: M240 Color Test. Anyway all i can say is i convert my M8.2 and M240 pics the same way with C1 v7, i use UV/IR filters with both and i rarely need to tweak colors in PP otherwise than by adjusting contrast and WB. FWIW.