mwilliamsphotography Posted February 16, 2014 Share #341 Posted February 16, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Back to the subject … long term product development on the part of Leica. Not a one sentence subject or quick quip retort to be sure. Rather than a Luddite verses Techno-Geek "user's" debate, it seems that we should be concentrating on how Leica can tap into new markets to expand their product line rather than having all the eggs in one M rangefinder basket. I believe what we have to say is valid since we are the one's buying this stuff, and at one time had to make the purchase decision to buy something different from the norm (a rangefinder). IMO, the S successfully did that to a certain degree … but that is a very small marketing opportunity. There is an obvious paradigm shift currently under-way. Because of mirror-less, everything is getting smaller. Small is not new, P&Ss have always been smaller. The difference now is that consumers do not see any advantage over their cell phones. P&Ss are done. The way photography is used by consumers now has also changed considerably. The direct connectivity of the smart phone is the criteria. The phone cameras are getting better with every new iteration. We know they can't compete with the versatility of a "real" camera, and consumers don't care what we think … so, as the ad says, "More photos are taken with an iPhone than all other cameras combined." Plus, if no one has noticed, while camera companies push hardware and specs, Apple pushes inspiritional creativity with their iPhone advertising. Heart beats brain every time. However, many consumers have kept their DSLRs for the occasional more important family/vacation/event/baby/dog/ images, but DSLR sales are sagging because what they have is thought to be good enough for that task. So, it seems there are two opportunities: 1) General consumers who would off-load their DSLRs for a much smaller, easy to take with, camera that can equal or beat their current choice in image quality and versatility, while maintaining that direct connectivity. 2) The other being a collective of serious advanced amateurs, family shutter bug-hobbyist, and professional photographers serving certain types of consumer markets like wedding/portrait/baby/event/web sales/landscapers/sports shooters/etc., (not studio production shooters or high fashion photographers, etc. that the S system is aimed at). The first segment is far more price sensitive than the second. Leica seems less likely to succeed here. A $650 Sony A6000 is the type of solution that would appeal here IMO. The second segment is ripe for the picking. If the innovative value is apparent, the top level of this segment will shell out proportionately higher $ for a premium product with incremental functional gains. Sony and a few others are now trying to penetrate this segment. The A7R isn't exactly inexpensive. If Leica offered a full frame version of a M sized camera, with the next-gen EVF built-in, that took M lenses and adapted R lenses … and a few new AF lenses … they'd have the viable alternative to a M rangefinder with its limited appeal to most new prospects; pique interest amongst many current M users (who probably already use other cameras anyway), and be in a unique position to do this because of their sensor tech which other mirror-less can't currently match, and may never match with M lenses. It all seems so obvious … but it wouldn't be the first time a company couldn't see the solution sitting right in front of their faces. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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wildlightphoto Posted February 16, 2014 Share #342 Posted February 16, 2014 HSS would be the way to go. I shudder to think what a hummingbird would look like with pulsed flash. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted February 16, 2014 Share #343 Posted February 16, 2014 I agree with most of what Marc says, a new FF camera that takes M and R lenses (maybe even S lenses) with an adapter would be a logical step. That camera/system would have a leaf shutter option and new AF lenses for it's T-mount. It sounds like most here on this forum would like to see that happen. But I think Michael (mjh) has been as clear as he can be that the new Leica T is going to be APS-C. Perhaps the new mount is 'FF-ready' but I wouldn't count on that. There is a lot to say for the smaller format, though. APS-C will surely be 'good enough' for a wide range of applications and hopefully will keep the size down and the price low, well, kind of ... Anyway, I can understand Leica opting for APS-C for the new T-camera system. Technically it will be good enough for many photographers, but marketing-wise I think FF would have been the better option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted February 16, 2014 Share #344 Posted February 16, 2014 Oh and one more thing: Leica has always been about smaller cameras and lenses. In that respect I can understand the choice for APS-C too. With sensor tech getting better and better I'd think upcoming APS-C sensors combined with outstanding Leica glass will outdo todays FF cameras and have the small size advantage Leica is famous for. If Leica aims for such a system, leaf shutters, which would probably make the lenses bigger, would just be in the way. Especially when global shutter sensors are on the horizon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJH Posted February 16, 2014 Share #345 Posted February 16, 2014 Have you seen how small the X100 and Rx1 are with their fast leaf shutter lens units? You just can't make a lens and sensor package that compact with focal plane shutters as both Fuji and Sony's similar MILC product lines demonstrate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 16, 2014 Share #346 Posted February 16, 2014 I shudder to think what a hummingbird would look like with pulsed flash. Actually it might be quite interesting, come to think of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted February 17, 2014 Share #347 Posted February 17, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Actually it might be quite interesting, come to think of it. Yup, once. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imsilly Posted February 17, 2014 Share #348 Posted February 17, 2014 Leica isn't like other camera brands, they don't have to be as competitive or technologically advanced. I wish they could be, but they won't because it seems it's not in the company's philosophy to concentrate on innovation, effectiveness and efficiency. Instead they rely on a strong brand and brand loyalty. It's their strength, but also Achilles heal as it leads to lots of resting on laurels. A new AF, FF, Mirrorless with EVF and decent video, but backwards compatibility with the M mount lens line up is what would sell and open up a serious market for Leica. Imagine a Sony A7 had sex with a M240 and none of them passed on their dodgy genes. That is what would be effective as a camera and popular with photographers. What we will most likely get is a rebadged Panasonic, or new crop system no one wants. Also, as to other brand's strategies it's all about profits. Sony, Fuji and Panalympus know exactly what sells. The Asians buy lots of cheap mirrorless cameras and only use kit lenses. The Americans buy big old DSLRs and as many zooms they need to look professional. That is why you get lots of new mirrorless bodies with kit lenses pushed out by Japanese firms for the domestic market and why companies like Sony are breathtakingly slow to put out any native lenses. No one actually buys them. Fuji is the only mirrorless brand to put out a lot of high end glass because it thinks it can appeal to DSLR users, not because it wants a share of the m43 market. It's why Canikon does put out such a massive range of native lenses and makes no mirrorless bodies. They know their market and where the profits are. Leica is stupid because they could cash in by opening the market up to more M lens users by making cheaper mirrorless bodies that perform well with them, but that would hurt their elitist brand image and put off the cork sniffer gentleman photographers that buy a Leica with their retirement cheques. That core demographic of polite balding old white guys and sensible shoe wearers would cough up fur balls at the idea of a cheaper better performing range of bodies and Leica knows that. It would remove the sense of gravitas surrounding the brand that attracts those shooters in the first place. Imagine if Leica was as common to see as a Olympus or Canon? Soon the elitist branch of the Leica fan club would slink off, or bemoan the direction of Leica. So it's a case of the devil you know, which prevents them actually opening up a new market to their lenses (which is Leica's strongest attribute) to more customers. I think a decent mirrorless body that was affordable and native to M mount would kill sales wise, but it won't happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJH Posted February 17, 2014 Share #349 Posted February 17, 2014 Hard to believe maybe but in the past 4 years I have never seen another Fuji or Olympus camera out in the wild. Loads of CaNikon DSLRs though. Veblen is a horrible word but I think its what you meant and I can't disagree with it. I love my M6 to bits and from the M8 on I have been sucked in but the pricing of new products is nothing short of perverse. The only flaw in your'e analysis is it forgets what those in other markets selling high end stuff have learned, simply that there is more profit available going for low sales but very high margin. The Swiss watch industry proved that point conclusively and its difficult to see a company like Leica doing anything that damages their image. Think Rolex Oysterquartz, it is more expensive than their 3 hand mechanical movements but was quietly killed off and expunged from history like it didn't happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted February 17, 2014 Share #350 Posted February 17, 2014 Leica isn't like other camera brands, they don't have to be as competitive or technologically advanced. I wish they could be, but they won't because it seems it's not in the company's philosophy to concentrate on innovation, effectiveness and efficiency. Instead they rely on a strong brand and brand loyalty. It's their strength, but also Achilles heal as it leads to lots of resting on laurels. A new AF, FF, Mirrorless with EVF and decent video, but backwards compatibility with the M mount lens line up is what would sell and open up a serious market for Leica. Imagine a Sony A7 had sex with a M240 and none of them passed on their dodgy genes. That is what would be effective as a camera and popular with photographers. What we will most likely get is a rebadged Panasonic, or new crop system no one wants. Also, as to other brand's strategies it's all about profits. Sony, Fuji and Panalympus know exactly what sells. The Asians buy lots of cheap mirrorless cameras and only use kit lenses. The Americans buy big old DSLRs and as many zooms they need to look professional. That is why you get lots of new mirrorless bodies with kit lenses pushed out by Japanese firms for the domestic market and why companies like Sony are breathtakingly slow to put out any native lenses. No one actually buys them. Fuji is the only mirrorless brand to put out a lot of high end glass because it thinks it can appeal to DSLR users, not because it wants a share of the m43 market. It's why Canikon does put out such a massive range of native lenses and makes no mirrorless bodies. They know their market and where the profits are. Leica is stupid because they could cash in by opening the market up to more M lens users by making cheaper mirrorless bodies that perform well with them, but that would hurt their elitist brand image and put off the cork sniffer gentleman photographers that buy a Leica with their retirement cheques. That core demographic of polite balding old white guys and sensible shoe wearers would cough up fur balls at the idea of a cheaper better performing range of bodies and Leica knows that. It would remove the sense of gravitas surrounding the brand that attracts those shooters in the first place. Imagine if Leica was as common to see as a Olympus or Canon? Soon the elitist branch of the Leica fan club would slink off, or bemoan the direction of Leica. So it's a case of the devil you know, which prevents them actually opening up a new market to their lenses (which is Leica's strongest attribute) to more customers. I think a decent mirrorless body that was affordable and native to M mount would kill sales wise, but it won't happen. My, my, you don't mince words do you? LOL! Not my retirement checks, trust me on that. Americans have bought 35 DSLRs because for all intents and purposes that was all that was available in interchangeable lens cameras … their cell phones are now their P&S camera. Most are just family folks using their family camera for special occasions. The few that buy to "look professional" are usually club members, the highly image conscience, and wannabes … the remainder actually ARE pros shooting weddings, portraits, editorial, web-commerce jobs, and so on. Up to now (and even now), there are no systems that can compete with a versatile 35mm DSLR kit. How long that lasts remains to be seen. I also do not believe a smaller M sized $4,000 mirror-less body would cannibalize M rangefinder sales to badly. People who prefer working with a rangefinder are pretty secure in that preference. The shooting experience is unique. Non-rangefinder shooters often do not get the distinction, and prattle on about it being antiquated or lesser than … when it is not … and is still around after all these decades of predicting its death. So a "better performing" body is your assessment … not that of the rangefinder user. When it comes cameras that exist based on their newer technological features, the life span is considerably shorter because the technology is just ramping up. The EVF is a good example of this … not bad, but will be better in very short order. The EVF of the M240 is already behind. So, the price threshold has to be considered for an EVIL M type body … but Leica does have an advantage … their sensor tech is already M lens compatible, and their camera would have their typical substantial tactile feel and suburb finish. The rest of your post sounds like whining because you can't afford Leica or something … and begrudge those successful enough to buy what they want even if they use it to shoot their dog and vacation photos. I say more power to them, because they keep my favorite "boutique" camera company in business. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 17, 2014 Share #351 Posted February 17, 2014 What we will most likely get is a rebadged Panasonic, or new crop system no one wants. As I've said before 'we' aren't the target market for this new upcoming camera. It will be, IMHO, a nice but ultimately lacking body along the lines of an X Vario, with a range of good quality Leica branded lenses to appeal to people who want such a camera but would rather buy something more exclusive than a Fuji or Canon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 17, 2014 Share #352 Posted February 17, 2014 ...I think a decent mirrorless body that was affordable and native to M mount would kill sales wise, but it won't happen. Jus replace "native to M mount" by "compatible with M mount" and "affordable" by "less expensive" and you will see what i'm watching in my crystal ball. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted February 17, 2014 Share #353 Posted February 17, 2014 I never thought that owning a Leica, drinking wine and being gray haired (yes, still have it) was a short coming. After working for 60 years, I have every right to use my earnings as I see fit, even though it irks some trolls. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 17, 2014 Share #354 Posted February 17, 2014 Sidestepping here, and most likely a long shot given the design, but I thought the resemblance between the play on the lens cover in this100 years teaser video and that X3 prototype that was floating about was interesting. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/216719-ceo-alfred-schopf-and-future-products/?do=findComment&comment=2534266'>More sharing options...
algrove Posted February 18, 2014 Share #355 Posted February 18, 2014 Forgot about that image. Do you think…? T for truncated. Must be a German word that starts with T that we have not mentioned yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 18, 2014 Share #356 Posted February 18, 2014 I certainly don't think it is the T. But I had heard they and a few products for their 100th year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imsilly Posted February 18, 2014 Share #357 Posted February 18, 2014 The rest of your post sounds like whining because you can't afford Leica or something … and begrudge those successful enough to buy what they want even if they use it to shoot their dog and vacation photos. I say more power to them, because they keep my favorite "boutique" camera company in business. - Marc It's more I want them to put out something I want to buy. I frankly could afford a M240 and a host of lenses, but I'm not one for splurging without reason. I am happy shooting film Leicas in a way that I couldn't see myself being with an M240. I couldn't sleep at night knowing that all that money could have been spent on better things then camera equipment and even if I did spend it on cameras I could be doing so much more with a body made by someone else. I really liked the Ricoh GXR M module along with their GR line. It's really a direction I would like to see Leica go. One where they concentrate on creating cameras that balance film and digital legacies and the needs of photographers outside the normal DSLR market. What you said about the versatility of the DSLR is true. At the moment why bother with a digital Leica that doesn't have the versatility of the 5D MKIII, blistering AF and ISO performance of the D4, or compactness and IQ of a A7r? What would make me buy a digital Leica would be the ability to use my M glass without adapters, having great ergonomics, firmware and processing, coupled with features that translate the traditional methods of using film Leicas with the greater accuracy needed for digital work. I don't really care what people shoot. 99% of what people shoot is such garbage being annoyed by it would just drive you mad. I do think that seeing themselves as a luxury or boutique brand will kill them as a real company. I live in London, which is the urban equivalent of a luxury brand. Go to one of the swanky shopping districts and take a look at the shops. Mile upon mile of gauche trinkets that cease to have any real use other then as fashion accessories or tokens of conspicuous consumption. Look closer and you'll see behind the shiny well designed overly affected exterior the goods are junk. £10,000 handbags that have leather I wouldn't make into army boots. Gold watches that are less accurate then my cellphone. Leica risks (well has already become) one of these farcical 'Boutique' companies where the product is secondary to its status as a symbol of success. We all laugh at Hasselblad relabelling Sony cameras, but Leica does the same with Panasonic and well their own cameras always seem to be about 1 generation behind the Japanese cameras, but with a cost sometimes 5 times as much. Since the 1960s Leica has been resting on it's laurels, but somehow managed to cement a small niche with documentary and art photographers. The problem is that these days with mirrorless cameras, that niche doesn't exist anymore. There are so many alternatives now, that you have to be realistic and say that you have to evolve beyond and anachronistic design and philosophy. For me personally it is only the Leica lenses that keep me at all interested in the company. It always comes back to that. Outside their lenses Leica is a total irrelevance, but I wished they'd make a body that allowed them to make a modern system, rather then just some nice lenses to put on your better bodies from other companies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sc_rufctr Posted February 18, 2014 Share #358 Posted February 18, 2014 IF the new "T" camera looked anything like this I would find it extremely tempting. Regardless of the specs Leica doesn't make junk Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/216719-ceo-alfred-schopf-and-future-products/?do=findComment&comment=2534423'>More sharing options...
Nick_S Posted February 18, 2014 Share #359 Posted February 18, 2014 IF the new "T" camera looked anything like this I would find it extremely tempting. Without a built-in viewfinder, it's just another camera I can ignore. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 18, 2014 Share #360 Posted February 18, 2014 Without a built-in viewfinder, it's just another camera I can ignore. Nick Without a built-in optical viewfinder, it's just another camera I can ignore! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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