bernard lockley Posted December 2, 2014 Share #501 Posted December 2, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Our concerns should be focussed on the commercial and legal aspects of our situation. there is a whole series of legal instruments and case law.dealing with 'fitness for purpose, merchantable quality etc. In the light of this, I would argue that the fundamental problems discussed by this thread refer to products which fail to meet the requirements of this legislation, particularly as case law suggests that goods promoted as premium products and which consequently attract higher prices, should also offer superior performance, I do not think my two M cameras fulfil these demands and , like Don Morley, I intend to consult the Trading Standards Authority. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 Hi bernard lockley, Take a look here Strange white spots on M9 sensor?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wlaidlaw Posted December 2, 2014 Share #502 Posted December 2, 2014 Wilson, could you please post an image of the spots? Here are just a few of the many spots on the image. The top ones are the ones I am most concerned about as they look just like what images looked like when it started to go wrong the last time. Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/216349-strange-white-spots-on-m9-sensor/?do=findComment&comment=2719712'>More sharing options...
keithlaban.co.uk Posted December 2, 2014 Share #503 Posted December 2, 2014 Take a look at post #431 by M9reno. I suspect that the marks shown (rings with a dark central spot) are the result of and evidence of corrosion, but I'd really love to be told different. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted December 2, 2014 Share #504 Posted December 2, 2014 Take a look at post #431 by M9reno. I suspect that the marks shown (rings with a dark central spot) are the result of and evidence of corrosion, but I'd really love to be told different. Here is the link http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2834431-post431.html 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted December 2, 2014 Share #505 Posted December 2, 2014 Here are just a few of the many spots on the image. The top ones are the ones I am most concerned about as they look just like what images looked like when it started to go wrong the last time. Wilson Just dust and no worry. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted December 3, 2014 Share #506 Posted December 3, 2014 Just dust and no worry. Pico, I think the circular ones are dust but I fear the ones looking a bit like worm tracks (and there are quite a few of them) may be the dreaded corrosion. I will clean with an Eye-Lead lollipop today and take another image. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jevidon Posted December 3, 2014 Share #507 Posted December 3, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) You may be correct, but the spots are very small and the clusters are located at both the right and left areas of the sensor where I would expect to find any lubricant thrown off by the shutter. In any event I will monitor them and see if the spots get bigger. My M9 sensor on inspections looked absolutely clean. Any traces of dust I removed with my Arctic Butterfly which has worked so well on my Fuji XPro-1 and my OM-D. However, on inspecting of blue sky areas or featureless expanses on my images, I detected which can best be described as "fisheyes" typical of what oil spots might look like. Yet, there was no trace of oil on the sensor on re-inspection, nor any sign of any visual surface contamination using a lighted sensor loupe. As you have been told by other forum contributors, these little spots are in fact corrosion spots referenced by Leica or what we less sophisticated refer to as the white spot phenomenon. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jevidon Posted December 3, 2014 Share #508 Posted December 3, 2014 Pico, I think the circular ones are dust but I fear the ones looking a bit like worm tracks (and there are quite a few of them) may be the dreaded corrosion. I will clean with an Eye-Lead lollipop today and take another image. Wilson Waidlaw, your spots are exactly like the ones I had. Cleaning would not remove them. When I sent my M9 into Leica for the M9P upgrade, I commented on the spots before I was even aware of the so called white spot phenomenon. I first learned of it after I sent my M9 to Leica. The Leica rep. by e-mail told me that the sensor had to be replaced without explanation. Subsequent conversations revealed that my sensor had the corrosion. I really don't think you will be able to get rid of your spots by cleaning. For your sake I hope I am wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWC Doppel Posted December 3, 2014 Share #509 Posted December 3, 2014 (edited) Blissfully unaware of this issue I took my M9-P for a sensor clean at the Mayfair store, thankfully it came back clean and no delamination. They are very aware of this issue and Leica is I suspect investigating heavily, seems the M8's are not affected. I fear the solution may be difficult as it us probably inherent in the glass spec and design. I do hope they find a solution, I'd love an MM but don't want to pick one up if they may be troubled too. Personally it will be film if no CCD sensor cameras exist for me. The reason I write is without checking I don't think you can conclude as my camera sensor looked very much like the white spot issue before a clean. The technician feared the worst before cleaning Edited December 3, 2014 by IWC Doppel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted December 3, 2014 Share #510 Posted December 3, 2014 All of this brings a wider question to the fore, and feel free to move this mods but how long should a digital camera last? Some seem to say maybe 8 years, in one of the posts Leica describe a 4 yr old camera as old. Do we expect a short life because manufacturers have conditioned buyers to this? After all the last couple of generation SLR's were electronic everything and many are still going strong, think Nikon F4 and F5 with electronic everything so why the short life with digital camera's. Comparisons with I phones etc are eronious, it is well established that mobs get upgraded every couple of years and the old one "recycled" whereas it's long established that many camera owners keep and use long term, anyone thrown a M3 in the bin lately? Many upgraded their digital camera's a lot a few years a go for better technology, not because of failure. I notice on Leica's website that in the blurb we still have the phrase "built to last a lifetime", surely this suggests 70 to 80 years then? Regards Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted December 3, 2014 Share #511 Posted December 3, 2014 The problem is an actual one on all of our M9s. Whether they show corrosion now or not is immaterial. It is a design problem: the sensor specs give a maximum of 70% RH as the humidity level the sensor can withstand. This RH is well within normal use parameters. You may not see the corrosion today, but you almost certainly will tomorrow - and the lifespan of this camera is now measured in three-year increments. Thus, no M9 or M9-type CCD sensor is fit for purpose. Leica's actions in the last month are revealing. The dodgy email proclaiming to be about safe sensor-cleaning, but really to try to pass on liability to anyone using contact cleaning, and to prep us for the new replacement charge regime. The ridiculous advice to shoot wide open (have we no eyes?). The company website removing information about sensor cleaning. The complete email silence to registered users. The making of customer service statements only through the informal medium of a forum thread. All M9s and CCD bedmates are affected, and the company's hatches seem to be closing in preparation for a major shit storm. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Morley Posted December 3, 2014 Share #512 Posted December 3, 2014 (edited) Kindly note. Leica's own M9 brochure states, and I quote - ' The Leica M9 is a investment for a lifetime'. It also says - ' Matchless manufacturing precision and painstaking assembly guarantee functional reliability for decades to come' Grandiose statements which the company must now be held to account for rather than we customers given these vastly expensive cameras which are sold on the basis of superior quality and reliability are in fact failing within two, three or four years, much as the M8's failed before. Whichever way I look at it Leica the company are failing us all by not standing up and admitting responsibility for products which are proving to be anything but long lasting, certainly not any where near the promised lifetimes or decades, and so I ask again please for any like minded and like affected UK owner to join with me in whatever it takes to take Leica UK to task. Don Morley:mad: Edited December 3, 2014 by Don Morley littery 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted December 3, 2014 Share #513 Posted December 3, 2014 Don, I empathize with your emotions, I too am potentially an affected user. My question is this: what are you seeking? Financial compensation, or a long term, proper fix to your camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted December 3, 2014 Share #514 Posted December 3, 2014 Kindly note. Leica's own M9 brochure states, and I quote - ' The Leica M9 is a investment for a lifetime'. It also says - ' Matchless manufacturing precision and painstaking assembly guarantee functional reliability for decades to come' Grandiose statements which the company must now be held to account for rather than we customers given these vastly expensive cameras which are sold on the basis of superior quality and reliability are in fact failing within two, three or four years, much as the M8's failed before. Whichever way I look at it Leica the company are failing us all by not standing up and admitting responsibility for products which are proving to be anything but long lasting, certainly not any where near the promised lifetimes or decades, and so I ask again please for any like minded and like affected UK owner to join with me in whatever it takes to take Leica UK to task. Don Morley:mad: Don (by the way, I am amazed by your work): now there may not be very many (we are a tiny minority of Leica zealots, and early days. with the broader public still blind to what is happening). But this affects all M9 and CCD-relatives. There will be thousands like us. Leica seems to know it is in huge trouble. The measures I described above are not taken by a company seeking a technical fix. They are taken by a company backed into a corner by its own mistakes and getting ready for the lawsuits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted December 3, 2014 Share #515 Posted December 3, 2014 It is a design problem: the sensor specs give a maximum of 70% RH as the humidity level the sensor can withstand. This RH is well within normal use parameters. You may not see the corrosion today, but you almost certainly will tomorrow - and the lifespan of this camera is now measured in three-year increments. Thus, no M9 or M9-type CCD sensor is fit for purpose. Mineral glass ports for underwater photography can dis-colour and haze due to wet storage, 'thin' Tele-Elmarits can suffer from hazy rear element, Renault Clio's can suffer from bonnets which flip up and so on. But NOT ALL and its not a certainty. I suspect that if you use a camera in high humidity and don't 'air' it before putting it away then you are increasing the likelihood of problems, but (as an M9 owner) I am not going to worry about this myself - if it happens I'll deal with it. Like's too short and I don't believe that it is possible to decide whether a problem is inevitable from specialist posts on a webforum like this. I'm quite sure that Leica are investigating and will decide what action to take when they have determined what they can do. FWIW, I mention the Renault Clio because mine had the big ends fail at 26k miles and within the 3 year warranty period. I hadn't been notified of the recall (a design problem - the con rod end bolts fitted were too short and could snap - as they did in my case - much to the bafflement of the AA man who I think suspected big end failure, but not on a car of less than 3 years old and with a quite reasonable mileage!) as the garage had lost the Renault dealership:mad:. I had a new engine fitted for free under warranty. Had this happened outside the warranty period I have no idea what might have happened, BUT, I am certain that Renault would not have offered a replacement engine for free despite the vehicle being subject to recall. Lets have a bit of perspective on this shall we... problems happen and need to be sorted reasonably for all concerned if and when they do, not in case they do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 3, 2014 Share #516 Posted December 3, 2014 ...Whichever way I look at it Leica the company are failing us all by not standing up and admitting responsibility for products which are proving to be anything but long lasting, certainly not any where near the promised lifetimes or decades, and so I ask again please for any like minded and like affected UK owner to join with me in whatever it takes to take Leica UK to task. Don Morley:mad:Don - why should this be Leica UK rather than Leica Camera AG? In my case, I bought the camera in Paris and live and use in a couple of other countries. What would I need to do to support this effort? The effort being to get Leica Camera AG to take a more straightforward approach in recognizing the problem and in moving to a recall, even if they say that the recall will be delayed for some months until the Company finds a permanent solution, whatever that may be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LEGEND Posted December 3, 2014 Share #517 Posted December 3, 2014 Hi everyone, this is my first post on the Forum. I hoped to post something nice but... Here is my first "shot in the sky" ever. I always had one single lens on my MM, never go out to shot on bad weather or on some dirty places,,, I never dare to clean sensor by myself or send it to someone for cleaning service... Almost get a heart atack when I look at my computer screan and sow this. I am not a sensor expert but this looks very bad... What are you thinking? What is all that? Dust, oil spots or something worse... Should i try to clean it myself or send it right away to Leica? Still have one month guaranty. Pls. for some advice and opinion. Greetings from Sarajevo, Bosnien Nikola Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/216349-strange-white-spots-on-m9-sensor/?do=findComment&comment=2720027'>More sharing options...
k_g_wolf ✝ Posted December 3, 2014 Share #518 Posted December 3, 2014 A lot of pretty bad spots, the camera should go to LEICA ... Contact them first per E-mail, they will give you a "time window" when to send the camera. Is there a dealer near your place? He might handle it for you. Best GEORG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted December 3, 2014 Share #519 Posted December 3, 2014 Go straight to your nearest Authorised Dealer and request a sensor clean, they will advise and you can get a new sensor if needed under your guarantee, in a perverse way you are lucky it happened now Nikola, cheers Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LEGEND Posted December 3, 2014 Share #520 Posted December 3, 2014 Thank you all for a quick response on my help call. This Leica MM is my first digital camera or Leica. Before I was 100% film shooter (still have my Leica MP) I had no idea that sensor can get so dirty... I know that on some point I must do some kind sensor cleaning but still... Actually I never noticed anything on pictures until last month. Perhaps because I shoot most of the time at night or some dark places with very high ISO. I allways thought that is a camera grain (noise) Thanks for your help, now I know the right procedure how to menage this problem of my. In next 10 days I will go in the Germany over the holidays and make a visite to my Authorised Leica Dealer. I buy it there so thay must handle this issue for me now. If the sensor replacement is unavoidable and I must wait for the service 6 month or more i still have my Leica MP... Back to the old ways of Film. I still have my complete Photolab, all I need now is some B/W Film, Photopapier... and I am right on the way to make some nice pictures. I don't like this whole sensor corrosion issue, but if I can not change anything about, why bother? I dont need all that stress in my life, as long I can do Photography (analog or digital) I am happy. My moto is DON'T PANIC and you will always have good Light! live long and prosper, Nikola 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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