Strange white spots on M9 sensor?

[andybarton]

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No one else uses Schott glass covers?

[Don Morley]

Everyone seems to think this sensor degradation problem has been caused by cleaning, wet or dry. But I went into Leica's London HQ last week and whilst there asked if they would kindly give the sensor of one of my M9's a routine clean.

Imagine my shock when the technician brought it back within a couple of minutes with the words 'Sorry I cannot do it, your cameras sensor is degrading, you have to understand it is a old camera'

He continued - 'It will have to go back to Wetzlar, the waiting list though is three months as we are getting quite a lot of these in like this now, and it will cost you1200 euros plus VAT or 600 euros (plus VAT) depending on how old it is'

 

My 'OLD' camera however is just under four years old, has had less than 40000 shutter actuations, and more to the point here perhaps HAS NEVER HAD ITS SENSOR CLEANED BEFORE BY LEICA, MYSELF, OR ANYONE ELSE! Sureley Leica owe we loyal customers better service and product longevity than this? Don:mad:

[geotrupede]

No one else uses Schott glass covers?

 

Yes, they do.

They use same company but a more resilient product (!!).

For example (unless you check links above) go to kodak web site and check MF sensors.

They use a different layer which does not need a protective coating...

 

In regards to other companies having issues.

Nothing to be found with google.

But to be fair to Leica, Canon for example does NOT accept wet cleaning.

All professionals do it, but it is outside of warranty.

 

Digital backs are another story, it is allowed.

But these use a more resilient schott product.

 

in any case, corrosion happens over a long time.

The issue is that you may have a perfect camera today and in 2 years a piece of junk.

Since a new M9 was about 5000 pounds you would expect it to last for some time.

And the MM is even worse.

A camera which is BW, meant to last for a loooong time, great piece of art and in 4 years?

Maybe just another piece of junk to dispose.

 

BTW,

I have a Nikon D100, CCD Kodak, it is now about 10 years old. Starts immediately, sensor is fine, never crashes, etc. Battery also lasts quite a bit.

Why a company with tradition an ethos like Leica is not able to do better in 2014?

 

G

[wattsy]

'Sorry I cannot do it, your cameras sensor is degrading, you have to understand it is a old camera'

 

Leica need to understand that they cannot spin the problem in this way. Considering the number of M9 cameras they have sold (presumably their best seller during the last decade) this problem isn't going to go away anytime soon and may well get considerably more serious for Leica (which is presumably what the new policy is meant to head off). It is frankly insulting to the customer's intelligence to suggest that this delamination/corrosion problem is what can be normally expected of an "old" digital camera.

Edited November 23, 2014 by wattsy

[edwardkaraa]

One thing could not be stressed enough. Every M with this Kodak sensor, be it M9, M9P, MM, ME, or any of the limited editions will have a delaminating sensor, sooner or later. It is unavoidable.

[M-Mount]

If corrosion is caused by moisture maybe storage in an dry and oxygen free environment would help

[Firefly]

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If this problem continues to grow and gets out into the wider world the ramifications for Leica could be very serious. Many dip into a system via the second hand route, possibly not wanting to commit big funds until they know it's for them. In my case and possibly many others as a relatively impoverished young man it was all I could afford but then it was reasonable for me to expect the M2 I bought to be reliable and I had the option of moving it on for similar money if I didn't take to it or trading up to another model which is actually what happened.

Looking at the secondhand M9's on UK dealers websites a ballpark price seems to be around £2600, yes market forces will move this downwards in time, also reducing the prices of current models will have an effect here, M240 reduced by £500.

Should this situation develop I cannot envisage many wanting to enter Leica world with the fear that their still expensive purchase could be junk tomorrow, or until the dealer's warranty runs out, and just what warranty would a dealer want to offer knowing what could happen.

Less people getting into the system, a reputation for a dodgy build = less sales of new models = less money to develop new products which = even less sales, which in time brings closure.

In the meantime less demand for the camera's will impact on those lens that we have been paying premium prices for due to the "demand".

This really needs sorting fast Leica, regards to all, Rob

[wattsy]

One thing could not be stressed enough. Every M with this Kodak sensor, be it M9, M9P, MM, ME, or any of the limited editions will have a delaminating sensor, sooner or later. It is unavoidable.

 

I'm not sure you can assume that every M9/P/M/E sensor will actually develop the problem though it seems clear that all these sensors have the potential to do so. Leica (and we as regular customers and users of the brand) had better hope that this doesn't happen because if even only 5-10% of these sensors go bad, the problem may become unmanageable and Leica may have to resort to offering free and/or subsidised exchanges with M240 (or film M:D) bodies. What I don't understand, and it seems a little irresponsible to me, is that Leica are continuing to sell the Monochrom and M-E.

 

At the very least, Leica need to make a further statement, preferably from one of the top level employees like Stefan Daniel, about what their expectations are in respect of the CCD sensors being installed now in the current production of Monochrom and M-E bodes and as replacements for sensors that have corroded in existing customers' cameras. Leica really need to explain what it is about these replacement sensors that differentiates them from those that have been seen to be prone to failure. If they don't (or can't) we can only assume that Leica are effectively crossing their fingers that these sensors will be okay going forward and that the problem quietly goes away as users gradually migrate to the M240 (or, as seems equally likely, cameras from other manufacturers).

[edwardkaraa]

I'm not sure you can assume that every M9/P/M/E sensor will actually develop the problem though it seems clear that all these sensors have the potential to do so. Leica (and we as regular customers and users of the brand) had better hope that this doesn't happen because if even only 5-10% of these sensors go bad, the problem may become unmanageable and Leica may have to resort to offering free and/or subsidised exchanges with M240 (or film M:D) bodies. What I don't understand, and it seems a little irresponsible to me, is that Leica are continuing to sell the Monochrom and M-E.

 

At the very least, Leica need to make a further statement, preferably from one of the top level employees like Stefan Daniel, about what their expectations are in respect of the CCD sensors being installed now in the current production of Monochrom and M-E bodes and as replacements for sensors that have corroded in existing customers' cameras. Leica really need to explain what it is about these replacement sensors that differentiates them from those that have been seen to be prone to failure. If they don't (or can't) we can only assume that Leica are effectively crossing their fingers that these sensors will be okay going forward and that the problem quietly goes away as users gradually migrate to the M240 (or, as seems equally likely, cameras from other manufacturers).

 

I'm pretty confident we can safely assume that each and every M9 derivative camera will have this problem. It is not a bad batch it is a faulty design. In Thailand where the weather is hot and humid, the delamination problem affects 100% of the pieces, minus the ones that are used by non photographers, who have no idea what sensor dust is, let alone sensor chicken pox I would imagine in parts of the world where it is cold and dry, the delamination process is slower to appear, but this doesn't mean corrosion is not silently happening.

 

This said, it is possible that when Leica ran out of sensors last year, as I've been told by customer care, the new ordered batch may have been fixed/improved, who knows. Otherwise their best bet is let the problem die by itself when people migrate to other models or brands as you said.

 

What I don't understand is, why did Leica launch the ME and MM, when the M9 sensor problem was quite well known, without doing anything to fix it.

[geotrupede]

...or is this a way to nudge all of us towards the M with a reduced price?

 

Coming from the M8 experience I am a bit less confident in the newest and greatest.

 

I am sure that the M will also show some nice issues timely that will require to look at how many years you had it in use to determine the price of a repair.

 

Unfortunately this is very disappointing.

 

I hope this issue to my M9 will not manifest anytime soon, I have no plans to upgrade or buy another one or pay for a repair caused by a poorly designed component.

 

G

Edited November 23, 2014 by geotrupede
spelling

[edwardkaraa]

...or is this a way to nudge all of us towards the M with a reduced price?

 

Coming from the M8 experience I am a bit less confident in the newest and greatest.

 

I am sure that the M will also show some nice issues timely that will require to look at how many years you had it in use to determine the price of a repair.

 

Unfortunately this is very disappointing.

 

I hope this issue to my M9 will not manifest anytime soon, I have no plans to upgrade or buy another one or pay for a repair caused by a poorly designed component.

 

G

 

The M has no known issues. The M9 issue was already starting only a few months from its release, at least where I live. Of course everyone thought it won't happen to me, but it happened to everyone I know. I think we can safely say that by now, the M has proven itself.

[photokalia]

I am very sure this wet cleaning issue is total BS. I bought my camera new and it started to show the delamination spots just a few weeks later. They might have been there since the beginning but I probably didn't bother to look for them in a new camera.

 

Many people I know had delaminating sensor coatings even though they never cleaned their sensors. By the time the MM came out, many people who bought them where already aware of the M9 problem. I confess to have cleaned mine, but not before I saw many spots, that I thought were dried oil, but turned out to be bubbles in the coatings that no cleaning can remove.

 

I believe that delamination will happen whether you wet clean or not. It's just a matter of time, and probably some humidity.

 

I second this. I never did any kind of sensor cleaning on my M9, dry or wet. When the spots started appearing, I tried dry cleaning at first, and gave up when it didn't help. The delamination steadily got worse, and I turned to wet cleaning as a last resort. Still didn't help, so finally I had no choice but to bring it down to Leica.

[Don Morley]

Everyone seems to think this sensor degradation problem has been caused by cleaning, wet or dry. But I went into Leica's London HQ last week and whilst there asked if they would kindly give the sensor of one of my M9's a routine clean.

Imagine my shock when the technician brought it back within a couple of minutes with the words 'Sorry I cannot do it, your cameras sensor is degrading, you have to understand it is a old camera'

He continued - 'It will have to go back to Wetzlar, the waiting list though is three months as we are getting quite a lot of these in like this now, and it will cost you1200 euros plus VAT or 600 euros (plus VAT) depending on how old it is'

 

My 'OLD' camera however is just under four years old, has had less than 4000 shutter actuations, and more to the point here perhaps HAS NEVER HAD ITS SENSOR CLEANED BEFORE BY LEICA, MYSELF, OR ANYONE ELSE! Sureley Leica owe we loyal customers better service and product longevity than this? Don:mad:

 

Please note I meant to say less than 4000, not 40000 shutter firings. Don

[Firefly]

Please note I meant to say less than 4000, not 40000 shutter firings. Don

 

Bet you really feel like buying another Leica right now? thought not.

 

Surely the answer if a free upgraded sensor, ok it will knock profits in the short to medium term and possibly a small amount of credibility short term but as the old saying goes, "anyone can make a mistake, it's how you deal with it that matters".

The current solution seems to be the path to oblivion, loss of consumer confidence and ill feeling with a backdrop of a declining market anyway, sure the market share and presumingly profit was up last year but the market can be fickle so it makes sense to spend some of it on preserving it in the future,

regards Rob

[dante]

Where is that documented?

 

It's right on Schott's cut sheets for the glass. S8612 is the wunderkind ultra thin' date=' ultra effective one - and as noted above is [b']exactly[/b] what makes up the M9's absorption filter. See what its sheet says about coatings:

 

http://www.howardglass.com/pdf/s_8612_datasheet.pdf

 

All of these near IR glasses have humidity warnings, S8612's is the most severe. Also, you can see that all three are not humidity resistant in the counter distinction below.

 

http://www.us.schott.com/advanced_optics/english/products/optical-components/optical-filters/nir-cutoff-filters/index.html

 

The usual workarounds are coating and laminating to other glass. Call Bob Cairns. He'll tell you all about it.

 

Dante

Edited November 23, 2014 by dante

[jaapv]

If corrosion is caused by moisture maybe storage in an dry and oxygen free environment would help

 

Yes - and cling foil...

[Firefly]

Yes - and cling foil...

 

Vac pack it ready for the collectors, Rob

[MRTEE]

Yes - and cling foil...

 

Or condom,with knot in the end. .

[jaapv]

I think I qualify as a loyal Leica customer. Part of the loyalty is the knowledge that Leica would do the right thing in a case like this. However, if this goes through... I will have to retire sometime, and won't be able to afford thousands of Euros for repairs -and certainly not for repairs of manufacturing defects. I guess I will have to have a hard think about my camera buying strategy...:o

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[edwardkaraa]

I think I qualify as a loyal Leica customer. Part of the loyalty is the knowledge that Leica would do the right thing in a case like this. However, if this goes through... I will have to retire sometime, and won't be able to afford thousands of Euros for repairs -and certainly not for repairs of manufacturing defects. I guess I will have to have a hard think about my camera buying strategy...:o

 

The problem is, we love using these flawed rangefinders. When my M9 was away for sensor change, I swore not to use Leica again, and bought a Sony A7. Then I realized my M mount lenses don't work well, so I bought Sony AF lenses, then I realized I hated AF, so I sold the A7 and bought a M(240). However, if Leica charged me for the sensor, I am not sure if I would have been as forgiving.