Leica stubborness will hurt sales

[sdai]

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... or even easier, you can set the serial number by scrolling up and down through 0-9 just like how you set the date and clock in the camera.

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[like_no_other]

... or even easier, you can set the serial number by scrolling up and down through 0-9 just like how you set the date and clock in the camera.

 

Ok, let's stop it here. I would easily pay $100 to avoid setting date and clock every time I change the lens.

[newyorkone]

This thread is amazing. Amazingly long, and for what?

 

I appreciated Guy's "request" for the menu option on his wish list. If it happens then great! If it doesn't, no matter, I still love my M8. Guy's wish list thread is where this matter should have left off and where this matter should have been discussed.

 

The originator of the post entitles his thread, "Leica STUBBORNESS will hurt sales" and makes comments like, "now, after three iterations of the firmware in the M8, it seems that Leica won't budge and will stick to their idiotic lens coding system", and then he is surprised that people are agitated and are stepping in to defend Leica? My replies were not intended to insult the originator of this thread, but more as a reaction to his tone and demeanor. Can anyone claim that the words chosen by the original poster are not insulting and inflammatory? Give me a break.

 

Most of the replies deemed as insults and policed by people who really have no business doing so, were in defense of Leica who hasn't given any clear indications as to where they are going to go with such requests. How long has the M8 been out? There are bigger issues to deal with? My original response called for a little patience and to give Leica some breathing room. Threads like this do not help accomplish that. They only instigate and polarize.

 

The feature was worth mentioning as a wish list item and this has already been conveyed. This original post, on the other hand, was crafted as an ultimatum, a threat...an insult. There's a big difference between a request and a demand. I'm surprised that people can't see the difference. One is respectful of Leica and the other is not much different than an adolescent tantrum. Adolescent tantrums should not be negatively reinforced.

 

The moderators should delete this thread because it begins with an insult and starts off on the wrong foot and it is of no benefit to this community. We are better than this and capable of more positive and beneficial dialogue. All of us.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Speaking of feature lists. this was sent before the public got 1.102 . Reason for the first line is written this way

 

 

1. Lens selection option "in menu" Generic 15, 21,24,28,35 otherwise with coding it is automatic regardless of setting.

Now this one I could not post because I know what is in 1.102. But in that menu drop down maybe add to the WATE settings 16,18,21, than add 24,28,35 no need for anymore because these will pick up the Leica coded equivalent lenses but if a coded lens is on the camera the code overrides the set ones except the WATE of course

 

 

2. Optional 16 Bit setting like the DMR or better option

 

3. EV/ISO option with controls of either arrows or wheel , protect or set buttons. Whatever is fast and confirmed. Idea flash in VF what was set when confirmed

 

4. B&W optional b/w review, without having to write JPEG

 

5 Warning of non coded lens

 

6. Full name of lens in EXIF data sample 50mm summilux 1.4 as it is read by the coding

 

7. 15mm F4, 24mm 1.4 or F 2 , 28 1.4 ( some really fast wide angles )and than a line of lenses like the 28 2.8 that will be less costs like a 75 2.8 , 90 2.8 or think about 1.33 image circle digital specific lens

 

8 SDHC compatible or new standard *This is not a leica call per say but industry standard

 

9 Travel charger smaller

 

 

now 5 may not be needed

[sdai]

The moderators should delete this thread because it begins with an insult and starts off on the wrong foot and it is of no benefit to this community.

Why?

 

because you've insulted the person who started the thread and received a warning from the mod? LOL

 

Let's read what you've written in post #224:

 

No you are not! You're not fighting for ME because I don't agree with you at all.

 

Your expectations are ridiculous. You use non-Leica lenses and you expect Leica to accommodate you. Absurd.

 

Sell your M8 and stop spamming this usually productive forum. No one is holding a gun to your head and saying that you should stick with Leica. If you don't like how things are AS THEY STAND, then get out of the system. You clearly are not happy with the camera when the majority of us are happy and getting great results without filters and without coding.

[jlm]

Franciso:

 

I was assisted/guided by Sean's reports on the 15 Heliar. From that I learned the lens did not rf couple and was excellent. I also read about the lens on Cameraquest, learned the same things.

 

that being said, it is upon the buyer to do his own research. whoever bought the 15 and did not know it was not rf coupled didn't read (reid?) enough.

given that the lens is such an excellent performer and cost 1/10 of Leica's nearest focal length, why not encourage buying it?

[like_no_other]

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Simon, I now see that you were right from the beginning. If you can set some favorites after selecting your lenses with the soft numerical pad the serial number solution is comfortabel and perfect.

Guy Mancuso should change his poor man's solution - no1 of he list - quickly to your much more sophisticated solution.

Successful brainstorming for this evening. Good night.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Just FYI i can't even begin to tell you the computer simulation work that was involved in just putting there 64 lenses in the firmware , no maybe your asking for a couple hundred. Whew now that is a ambitious request. Do you know how much engineeers cost. LOL

heck that 4800 for a m8 just went to 6800. ROTFLMAO

 

I swear tomorrow I am enrolling in engineering school. NOW THERE IS were the money is. :D

[sean_reid]

Just FYI i can't even begin to tell you the computer simulation work that was involved in just putting there 64 lenses in the firmware , no maybe your asking for a couple hundred. Whew now that is a ambitious request. Do you know how much engineeers cost. LOL

heck that 4800 for a m8 just went to 6800. ROTFLMAO

 

I swear tomorrow I am enrolling in engineering school. NOW THERE IS were the money is. :D

 

Hi Guy,

 

Who is asking for a couple hundred?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I think ALL serial number lenses back to pre war is that what i read. maybe i read it wrong

[like_no_other]

To begin with it's ok to start with the lenses that can already be coded. The rest is a student's job. The trick with Simons' solution is that you can use customized corrections for every lens (exact solution), not the inaccurate approximation solution with focal length.

 

By the way, I learned in many threads that money for Leica cameras is no issue for you.

1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ... M8 to fill your many photo bags :D

[hankg]

Let me add a final prespective to this thread . First this is not hurting Leica sales but it is hurting leica users and really the bottom line is that what truly counts long term for Leica and the continuation of the M line. Sort term leica is doing very well in sales with the M8 and there lenses but long term is what really counts and goes along with the historic value of the M line and all the lenses they have produced over the years that they can still work in the digital age .

 

I agree 100%

[hankg]

I agree with everybody who stated it's not Leicas business to promote or encourage use of 3d party lenses ......

One of the benefits of buying modern coded Leica lenses is COVENIENCE if used on the M8.... all other glass is perfectly usable but with compromises ..... nothing more or less ... and very legitimate.

 

It's got nothing to do with promoting 3rd party lenses -a rangefinder camera that drops the magenta at the edge of the frame with wide angles (the most popular focal lengths for RF) is not a 'compromise' it's broken. Well there is a solution you say. Dump your lenses and buy a supported lens. But what if I love my lenses? Or after busting the budget on the M8 I can't afford the lenses? - Well, then you shouldn't buy an M8, or if you bought one you should sell it. So we should have a continuation of Leica as an exclusive club of wealthy doctors, lawyers and accountants (no offense meant to practitioners here of these honorable professions)? A company past it's heyday surviving selling cool retro status objects to the well heeled.

 

With micro stock, rights grabbing contracts and photographers now reduced by bean counters at media conglomerates to virtual migrant labor status -the new economy has not been kind to photographers. Many of the freelance PJ's whose work appears in major publications all over the world on any given day are just getting by financially. Along with their Canon digital many of them that I know still keep a CV Bessa or Leica with a wide angle in the kit for certain types of stories. So whether it's a photographer doing hard news, 'pj style' weddings, lifestyle stock, social commentary, a financially challenged dedicated amateur, an artist of uncertain means or student, Leica should be doing everything possible to make this camera more accessible not less, so that the M is a viable digital tool for the largest possible number of working photographers.

 

The perception that the M8 is an M and will work with M lenses just like it's film counterpart is due in a large part to Leica's own advertising and press releases. Well, you say those fools who don't know that is no longer the case have not done due diligence and read all the latest fine print! No probably not, as I would expect they are photographers, not lawyers. But I don't think Leica will be running an ad campaign any time soon to counter their own publicity. An expectation created by a companies own marketing is difficult to undue once created without very negative consequences, in business you never want to promise one product then deliver another.

[hankg]

My last word on this (thanks to Guy and Sean for thier advocacy with Leica).

 

It's analogous to the IR filters. I have still not received my filters and could not buy Leica filters as they where not available. So I bought Heliopan and B+W. Do I expect Leica to guarantee the function of these filters? No, absolutely not. Even though it is Leica's screw up that forced me to go to the added expense of purchasing the filters, I am satisfied that Leica is doing everything within it's power to provide me with a workable solution. If I continue to use the B+W and Heliopan after the Lecia filters are available I am happy to do so at my own risk.

 

 

With the profiles I don't think Leica has done every thing reasonably possible to provide solutions to the problem they created. As with the 3rd party filters, I don't expect Leica to guarantee anything other then that the profiles will work in the way they where intended, any other use of them is entirely at my own risk. All of the talk about using menus not being convenient or the results not being good enough is irrelevant as manually selected profiles would not force anyone to use menus or not use 6-bit coding. You can simply ignore it if you don't like it. Other photographers will have different ideas about what is convenient and workable to yours.

 

 

Since Leica already has the ability to provide a work-around that would work for many it makes no sense for Leica to follow the advice of some here: that is to tell a large number of M users to take a hike, we don't want your business and if you where dumb enough to buy our camera you should sell it now! Actually I'm pretty confident that is not in Leica's marketing plans. As they seem very committed to expanding the companies sales, customer base and returning the company to the mainstream of photography.

[FMB]

Franciso:

 

I was assisted/guided by Sean's reports on the 15 Heliar. From that I learned the lens did not rf couple and was excellent. I also read about the lens on Cameraquest, learned the same things.

 

that being said, it is upon the buyer to do his own research. whoever bought the 15 and did not know it was not rf coupled didn't read (reid?) enough.

given that the lens is such an excellent performer and cost 1/10 of Leica's nearest focal length, why not encourage buying it?

 

Jlm, of course, I don't want to be the person who tells you which lens you have to buy. This is not the problem and I hope every body has understood that is not my purpose. What I'm trying to enphasize is that Leica should not be obliged neither put under pressure to modify its Menus to facilitate the use of third party lenses.

 

Every body in my opinion is free to assit, to guide, to buy, to advice, to test even to promote and to advertise third party lenses everywhere what I mean is that all that people must not press and force Leica to make itself the concurrence acting as a Leica supporters.

 

I think, with this answer, I've explain perfectly well my position in this debate. Taking profit of that I announce this is may last replay in this thread . I'm a little boring to have to repeat the same message without been understood. I suppose many people will be happy!

 

Thank you all,

 

Francisco.

[j. borger]

It's got nothing to do with promoting 3rd party lenses -a rangefinder camera that drops the magenta at the edge of the frame with wide angles (the most popular focal lengths for RF) is not a 'compromise' it's broken. Well there is a solution you say. Dump your lenses and buy a supported lens.

I never claimed you have to drop anything .... cyan cast can be adjusted in PS or with panatools .. if you do not like that..... there is handcoding and you can have made your own ltm to M adapters (as Jaap and Sean did) that you can code.....

I still stand to the fact that it is not the task of Leica to accomodate 3d party lenses. I think the claims and expectations of this forum towards Leica at times are insane.

The whole filter/ coding discussion is getting way out of proportions if you ask me ..... probaly because this is one of the last remaining "issues" to complain about!

Now we start the mourning and whining all over again because we can't use our beloved CV or Zeiss lenses on the M8 straight out of the box with the same convenience as the latest coded Leica lenses... ...........

 

BTW ... i use all of my modern Leica lenses with pleasure uncoded, as i do some vintage 3d party lenses

[j. borger]

I think, with this answer, I've explain perfectly well my position in this debate. Taking profit of that I announce this is may last replay in this thread . I'm a little boring to have to repeat the same message without been understood. I suppose many people will be happy!

 

Thank you all,

 

Francisco.

I share your opininon on this whole issue Fransesco and am bored with it too .. so i am out of the "discussion" also .......

[finkaudio]

Hi,

 

I guess everybody is bored by now....

 

What I don't understand is why people are only knocking on LEICA, asking to "open" the coding for others as well.

 

Would it not be more logic to ask CV and Zeiss to help with the coding?

 

CV could easily make a new adapter with the correct coding space. They only need to recess the area, so a Sharpie coding would not go away or they leave space for a sticker with the correct coding.

On M-mount lenses CV or Zeiss could also add the recessed area for hand coding and everyboy would be happy.

 

In my opinion the support should come from the manufacturer who wants to have the best performance on the M8. Just modifying the mount is by far easier and more logic than writing a new firmware and it would come from the right part of the market.

 

 

So what's about writing to CV now?? Or contacting Zeiss???

 

Best regards

 

Karl-Heinz Fink

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[ChrisC]

...... I'm a little boring to have to repeat the same message without been understood..........Francisco.

 

Francisco - What really is boring is when you and others adopt an air of intellectual superiority over those of us who simply can't comprehend the wisdom of the position you take in a polarised discussion. The reality is that actually we all understand your position because it is easy to understand, those of us adopting a view opposed to yours just fundamentally disagree agree with your views. Personally I think your opinions given in this thread are bad for Leica's business, and bad for Leica M8 customers, does this make me stupid for not sharing your outlook? Maybe I cannot draw on the immediate resources that others can to pay the Leica wide angle tax on a full set of exclusively Leica wide angle lenses, should I or others in a similar position be discouraged from expanding the M8 user base?

 

Thirty years ago I could not afford to get into the Leica system, and because of equipment decisions I made then, none of my extensive equipment expenditure in the last thirty years went to Leica.

 

..................Chris

[sdai]

So after 338 posts in this thread, many of you jumped the gun and hit the reply button don't even have a clue to what's going on and what the matter is about LOL

 

May I kindly suggest you do not reply if:

 

1. You're absolutely happy with what you have now;

2. You don't understand what the coding is for and how it works

3. why CV and ZM can't/won't code their lenses

4. you only use the latest and greatest asph lenses

 

?

 

If you're bored go grab a beer or coffee ... how hard is that?