sean_reid Posted April 17, 2007 Share #281 Posted April 17, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) They may still do it too...Tom Believe me when I say that I agree. They just need to decide that it is in their best interests, long term, to do so. They certainly are selling a lot of M lenses right now. Lobbying Leica for this feature is only part of the efforts I've made, and make, to try to improve the M8. Lots goes on that cannot be discussed. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 17, 2007 Posted April 17, 2007 Hi sean_reid, Take a look here Leica stubborness will hurt sales. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
sean_reid Posted April 17, 2007 Share #282 Posted April 17, 2007 I thought you HAD this lens, once.Tom When one visualizes Guy's lens collection, one must imagine a motorized "Lazy Susan". At any given time, certain lenses are on the kitchen side. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted April 17, 2007 Share #283 Posted April 17, 2007 My thoughts on how it should work for some folks that may have like a 15mm CV lens and say there 28 1.9 plus have 3 leica lenses that are coded. What a user would do is go in and set the 28mm manually but than decided after a few shots to use a coded 50 lux . My thoughts are the firmware automatically switches to the 50 coded than if the user went back to the 28mm that fixed manual setting is there until the user changes it himself . This way if you have a mixture of lenses when putting on a coded lens it acts automatically like it does today but that fixed 28mm that was set is on temporary hold until the M8 realizes a new lens being put on without the code just reverts back to the 28mm until the user physical changes it. I have to do this today with the WATE becuse it will set the lens at default 18mm but as soon as i put that lens on i get my options of 16,18,21mm on were i want to shoot. Like Sean was saying for fast paced shooters this will help but for me i really don't need the menu option except for the WATE like it is today so for me I really don't care for a menu option, but that is me and for other M8 users i support it because it is a useful feature for folks that have a mix of lenses. i decided long ago to just go Leica glass coded and be done with it but that is my choice and my money. Frankly it helped me a great deal yesterday doing my taxes but hobbyist don't have that option to write this stuff off so i will support this menu option for them. And who knows down the line i may grab a lens that can't be coded . i will get a CV12mm soon though but i have a mount at least coded for the WATE , but i will have to test IR filters on it to see if it is even reasonable to shoot like that but may not need it on this lens, will see. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted April 17, 2007 Share #284 Posted April 17, 2007 Not a tele problem of course. Just Leica and other wides that cannot be coded so far. We don't use dozen of such wides obviously. We don't need special settings either. Just default settings for each Leica focal length i.e. 16, 18, 21, 24, 28 and 35mm. This way i could use the '35' setting for my Summaron 35/2.8 or my Summicron 40/2 if need be. Also i may be a somewhat great Leica user with 5 Leica bodies and 19 or 20 Leica lenses but i like much my cute M-Rokkor 28/2.8 as well and i would like to get a little 21mm lens like the Zeiss 21/4.5. I could then use the '28' and '21' default setting and everybody would be happy. Also the question is not to know if it will be easy to use the menu or not or if the results will be perfect or not. The problem is to know if Leica users are allowed to use their M or LTM lenses without ugly color casts on their Leica body. A negative response would be a disrespect towards old and new Leicaphiles IMHO. Hi LCT, It would be better not to have generic settings for each focal length. They wouldn't be close enough. Best, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted April 17, 2007 Share #285 Posted April 17, 2007 But the Summaron will certainly have a different cyan drift than the Summicron. So it is not possible to apply the same correction. Even lenses with the same specification are different. The best we can hope for with changelings is a correction that is "close enough" That is what Sean is testing right now. ...and what I'm seeing so far is that sometimes the results aren't just "close enough", they're nearly spot-on. For which goodness, we might take a moment to note that Leica has done a great job, so far, with 1.102. Again, it may come to pass that what works well for the modern Leica lenses also works well for a lot of lenses. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 17, 2007 Share #286 Posted April 17, 2007 ...and what I'm seeing so far is that sometimes the results aren't just "close enough", they're nearly spot-on. For which goodness, we might take a moment to note that Leica has done a great job, so far, with 1.102. Again, it may come to pass that what works well for the modern Leica lenses also works well for a lot of lenses. Cheers, Sean Glad to hear it, Sean. I will experiment with different filter brands to be as spot-on as possible. Your work, again is greatly appreciated. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted April 17, 2007 Share #287 Posted April 17, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think we maybe able to do just a generic 24,28,35 just leave the WATE settings that are present than add the rest as genrics BUT we may have to test each Zeiss CV and leica non codes to see how close it really is before leica can make that call. My thoughts are like LCT leave the WATE numbers than just add 24,28,35 but only if almost all lenses can work in this generic fashion for the Zeiss , CV and Non coded old leica's. As Sean has been testing a lot of these out we may just get lucky here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted April 17, 2007 Share #288 Posted April 17, 2007 Guy wrote: "My thoughts on how it should work for some folks that may have like a 15mm CV lens and say there 28 1.9 plus have 3 leica lenses that are coded. What a user would do is go in and set the 28mm manually but than decided after a few shots to use a coded 50 lux . My thoughts are the firmware automatically switches to the 50 coded than if the user went back to the 28mm that fixed manual setting is there until the user changes it himself . This way if you have a mixture of lenses when putting on a coded lens it acts automatically like it does today but that fixed 28mm that was set is on temporary hold until the M8 realizes a new lens being put on without the code just reverts back to the 28mm until the user physical changes it." Exactly. "I have to do this today with the WATE becuse it will set the lens at default 18mm but as soon as i put that lens on i get my options of 16,18,21mm on were i want to shoot." Right "Like Sean was saying for fast paced shooters this will help but for me i really don't need the menu option except for the WATE like it is today so for me I really don't care for a menu option, but that is me and for other M8 users i support it because it is a useful feature for folks that have a mix of lenses. i decided long ago to just go Leica glass coded and be done with it but that is my choice and my money. Frankly it helped me a great deal yesterday doing my taxes but hobbyist don't have that option to write this stuff off so i will support this menu option for them." And some pros also use a mixture of lenses from various makers. So, pro or amateur, this flexibility can be beneficial to many photographers. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMB Posted April 17, 2007 Share #289 Posted April 17, 2007 Funny! In fact, Porsche is just on the way to take another major share in Volkswagen. So it could be one day that VW is a subsidary of Porsche. I'm serious! Maybe Leica should think about buying shares in Zeiss. That would make it easy to code the lenses for them . OK, not so serious Best regards KH Just to apologize to mention Porche. It has been a misunderstood of Jaap's answer to my post due to my diffculties in English interpretation. As you see I'm spanish. Thank you, Francisco. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted April 17, 2007 Share #290 Posted April 17, 2007 Glad to hear it, Sean. I will experiment with different filter brands to be as spot-on as possible. Your work, again is greatly appreciated. Thanks very much. That is the other variable too. Those of us who are willing to experiment have two variables that we can control. Namely, how does lens X with filter Y work with firmware (whatever the latest version might be). We're going to find various combinations that do beautifully. Those who don't want to bother with these kinds of experiments can stick to using just coded Leica lenses and Leica filters...and that's cool too. A whole bunch of new tests coming up tonight. I have various Leica lenses and filters that just came in for testing. That includes the WATE but I still need the Leica 49 and 55 filters to do some of the testing. I have the John Millich adapter for the WATE so the 49 filter would be the final piece. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted April 17, 2007 Share #291 Posted April 17, 2007 I think we maybe able to do just a generic 24,28,35 just leave the WATE settings that are present than add the rest as genrics BUT we may have to test each Zeiss CV and leica non codes to see how close it really is before leica can make that call. My thoughts are like LCT leave the WATE numbers than just add 24,28,35 but only if almost all lenses can work in this generic fashion for the Zeiss , CV and Non coded old leica's. I agree with you, Guy ... a generic focal length recording should be fine because there're simply too many lenses on the stable and I don't think it's practically feasible for Leica to "support" all of them in camera. This would be left as a job for any third party who might be interested in developing a lens profile to be used in conjunction with a raw convertor or image editing software. Some may even write a freestyle Photoshop plugin such as the Nik filters ... so the users could adjust the amount of correction needed for vignetting, color shift etc on their own. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted April 17, 2007 Share #292 Posted April 17, 2007 Let me add a final prespective to this thread . First this is not hurting Leica sales but it is hurting leica users and really the bottom line is that what truly counts long term for Leica and the continuation of the M line. Sort term leica is doing very well in sales with the M8 and there lenses but long term is what really counts and goes along with the historic value of the M line and all the lenses they have produced over the years that they can still work in the digital age . Let me also add even though leica said they were not going to support this earlier or whatever the wording may have been does NOT mean this will not happen in future firmware and like i said a long time ago in this thread there first moral and ethical thing to do was getting the firmware to a neutral state for a normal working M8 1.102 has done that in many ways. now that this is the case this option menu can be looked at in a different prespective and folks like Sean, Myself and others are and have been pushing for this a long time and i personnally feel leica will do this in time when they feel comfortable about the firmware in place that is done with the bugs and fixes. All we can do as end users is let leica know it is important to us and to please consider this option. Most of you know i sent in a feature option in several weeks ago with this being priority one and Sean has been working this a long time as well. Also we have to think of other folks than ourseves in this matter , just becuase you may not have use for it does not mean that it is not a important feature for others. There is no customizing for ones personal needs here, it is design for all and features and options as well. So think in terms of M8 user base . With that i will gracefully exit this thread . Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted April 17, 2007 Share #293 Posted April 17, 2007 Let me also add even though leica said they were not going to support this earlier or whatever the wording may have been does NOT mean this will not happen in future firmware Let's hope for the best, Guy ... knowing that you're directly hooked up with the right person, I'll continue to hold my breath. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted April 17, 2007 Share #294 Posted April 17, 2007 I think we maybe able to do just a generic 24,28,35 just leave the WATE settings that are present than add the rest as genrics BUT we may have to test each Zeiss CV and leica non codes to see how close it really is before leica can make that call. My thoughts are like LCT leave the WATE numbers than just add 24,28,35 but only if almost all lenses can work in this generic fashion for the Zeiss , CV and Non coded old leica's. As Sean has been testing a lot of these out we may just get lucky here. Hi Guy, A generic solution would be convenient but I don't think it would work. Moreover, I think that people who own some un-coded modern Leica lenses (that they have not sent in for coding for various reasons, some having nothing to do with cost) would want to be able to select the exact corrections Leica has designed for their specific lenses. So I'd like to see a system that gives access to the same lenses that Leica has coded corrections for. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted April 17, 2007 Share #295 Posted April 17, 2007 I know it would be nice to keep a simple menu option but your point is well taken as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 17, 2007 Share #296 Posted April 17, 2007 "It's not always about what the client will accept but about what you want to deliver to your client." I think this applies to Leica as well. A good quote. It implies a listening ear yet it fixes the final resposibility firmly. Very apt to the thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted April 17, 2007 Share #297 Posted April 17, 2007 Guy wrote; "Let me also add even though leica said they were not going to support this earlier or whatever the wording may have been does NOT mean this will not happen in future firmware..." Right. If they become convinced that's it's the right step for them to take then they can do it. I've been been working to convince them of this since October but you're also right that they've had a big "to do" list and can only move onto item 5 when item 4 is working well, etc. "Also we have to think of other folks than ourseves in this matter , just becuase you may not have use for it does not mean that it is not a important feature for others." As you know, I strongly agree with that. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. borger Posted April 17, 2007 Share #298 Posted April 17, 2007 It is not only about supporting third party lenses ... some people want to use some of Leica's old lenses which aren't supported by the bogus 6-bit coding. Ok Simon ... i am one of them .... but 35 & up does not need coding ..... even if you want to shoot color with a pre-war uncoated Leica lens... So what vintage/ older Leica lenses 28mm and wider would you love to have coded ..... you can't use the 21mm angulon anyway on the M8? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted April 17, 2007 Share #299 Posted April 17, 2007 Ok Simon ... i am one of them .... but 35 & up does not need coding ..... even if you want to shoot color with a pre-war uncoated Leica lens...So what vintage/ older Leica lenses 28mm and wider would you love to have coded ..... you can't use the 21mm angulon anyway on the M8? 35s need coding as well. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george_b Posted April 17, 2007 Share #300 Posted April 17, 2007 35s need coding as well. Cheers, Sean I like my 35mm 'cron as it is, just with a IR filter. What colour caste and vignetting? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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