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Leica stubborness will hurt sales


hammam

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I agree Hank and it certainly can bite them in the butt down the road. Until Phase can hook directly up with a camera system. Reason i still have not jumped yet is things are changing on a hourly basis in MF. There move in my opinion was over the top

Hasselblad's move really threw a bomb into the MF market. Phase One (there are more Hassy's with Phase backs then Hassy backs) judging from the editorial in their last newsletter is fuming. It will take a few months to see how all the other players respond. I'd keep my powder dry for now. the kind of money MF commands make a few thousand extra for a Leica lens seem like chump change.

 

Back on topic. I think Leica finds themself in a difficult position. They had not intended 6-bit coding to be a barrier to entry for the M8 but at the same time they do not want to give their implied blessing to half measures and work-arounds. It's just not the way they do things, which is why they don't support all Leica lenses. They just don't have the resources (neither is it economicaly feasable) to do thorough, rigorous development of profiles for each lens (+ there are a finite number of codes) and a huge number of lenses in Leica's illustrious catalog going back long before most of us were born.

 

I think they can provide the menu option, stating that it is for the convenience of customers with supported lenses who want access to the profiles.

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...... Their marketing department will decide what price any product will bear and it is their duty to their shareholders to maximise the profit. ....... At present they can sell every M8 they make.......

 

Anthony - It's because of the history of the M8 launch that supply has not caught up with demand, but that will not always be the case. There are those of us arguing differently to you who believe that Leica's best interests are served by getting new customers, such as myself, into the M8 system as soon as possible. Once in the M8 system a user is a potential customer for life as an up-grader to the best Leica lenses, put-off customers are Leica's lost opportunity.

 

This particular first time Leica customer [still waiting for his pre-paid camera, still waiting for his Solms lens] has wobbled a few times over the current Leica coding/wide angle tax. Had I cancelled my M8 [which I have come close to doing a few times] I would have walked away from Leica forever. Fascinating though this forum can be, it is not the place to gauge the thoughts of those people who otherwise might buy into the M8 system given the right encouragement.

 

It is my contention that the inability use older Leica lenses, CV, or Zeiss lenses via a menu system as so eloquently described by Sean, is a barrier to getting into the system, and a poor business model for Leica's long term future. I want Leica to become a growing, modernising company, not one which appears to stick doggedly with legacy design or huddled close-system thinking. Others will have a different view of course.

 

.................Chris

 

And my apologies for still being the slowest typist here. I've just spotted how many posts there have been since I started typing mine, sorry for any duplicated ground.

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I think Leica should provide a menu option too, but I'm not going to sweat it. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that some outfit like Nik will come up with a plugin for Photoshop that'll solve the problem with virtually any lens you can hook onto the M8. It's pretty clear that software can't solve the IR problem, but if the cyan shift can be corrected in camera it can be corrected in post-processing software. Just like the guys who took three days to break an encryption system the U.S. government spent a couple years and several million dollars to develop, someone will do it.

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Guy, we're still in the phase of the first excitement and enthusiasm following the launch of the M8, so I guess they're doing very well as fas sales are concerned. What I'm wondering about is the long term. My comparison of costs apply to M8 buyers in one year or two from now, when more and more amateurs will begin to look into this system, as opposed to the crowd of professionals who are investing in the M8 right now. Wether it comes from Leica, or from Cosina or Zeiss, or jointly, they must find a solution to the Leica lens only system. This proposition is just too prohibitive. Unless they don't want to expand, and want to keep their base clientele among professionals and wealthy amateurs.

 

Leica was on the brink of bankruptcy not so long ago. Now, they've jumped on the bandwagon, and went DM, after the DMR. I strongly believe that to survive the extreme competition of the digital photo world, you have to go get your customers anywhere you can find them. I don't think Leica, as «niched» as the M system may be, can escape the fact.

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Guy, we're still in the phase of the first excitement and enthusiasm following the launch of the M8, so I guess they're doing very well as fas sales are concerned. What I'm wondering about is the long term. My comparison of costs apply to M8 buyers in one year or two from now, when more and more amateurs will begin to look into this system, as opposed to the crowd of professionals who are investing in the M8 right now. Wether it comes from Leica, or from Cosina or Zeiss, or jointly, they must find a solution to the Leica lens only system. This proposition is just too prohibitive. Unless they don't want to expand, and want to keep their base clientele among professionals and wealthy amateurs.

 

Leica was on the brink of bankruptcy not so long ago. Now, they've jumped on the bandwagon, and went DM, after the DMR. I strongly believe that to survive the extreme competition of the digital photo world, you have to go get your customers anywhere you can find them. I don't think Leica, as «niched» as the M system may be, can escape the fact.

 

That is of course their traditional customer base. Not long ago one of their spokesmen said: We will not build an entry level camera, we regard our used ones as such, or words to that effect. If the your economic reasonig is correct the ideal moment to introduce such an option would be when sales slacked off. Not now.

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Ok, lets call it programming via menu selection. Three parameters! Not a trivial matter. The multiple versions of certain FL aperture combinations I see as being particularly problematic if they are based on product number. I sometimes use a nickname such as skinny tele-Emarit to refer to a lens. In the case of the 28/2.8 lenses by the filter size since they differ. But not product number. Maybe I will have to change. Either three menu items or a nested menu ala Nikon - sharpies look better all the time.

Tom

 

Hi Tom,

 

I think many photographers would be willing to do those three steps in the menu to gain this functionality. Those who find it inconvenient, too slow, etc. could ignore that menu item.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Guy - "But it is hurting a lot of users" - Is it ? Who ? Why ? Is it price ? If it is I have no sympathy. If it's because the camera can't handle earlier Leica glass of longer focal length then I do have sympathy but such is progress.

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If they ever reached an agreement, there would have to be a way for corrections specific to each Zeiss be incorporated in the M8 FW and specific codes be established for each of the Zeiss lenses (add a bit - to seven bit?). I doubt this will ever happen given that these companies are in competition.

Tom

 

Right, that's what I said in the post you just quoted.

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Simon - I don't think Leica can be accused of "screwing" anyone. Their marketing department will decide what price any product will bear and it is their duty to their shareholders to maximise the profit. If coding is so expensive that it is driving people away from the M8 then they will reduce the price. At present they can sell every M8 they make so clearly the coding prices are not excessive. I do sympathise with you as I think the coding charges are high. But as with all products if you price them too highly then alternatives appear.- perhaps a Chinese company could offer coding at a lesser price. If they did then Leica would - assuming the process cost is below the price - reduce their prices accordingly.

 

Anthony,

 

I'm curious as to your source that says that Leica sells every M8 it makes and also curious as to why you might think that would continue indefinitely into the future.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Even if using nearest-substitute codes (or non-Leica IR filters) doesn't completely eradicate the cyan drift, it still allows the lenses to be identified in EXIF so the user can file them together by lens and run them through batch actions.

 

Interestingly enough, the new firmware does essentially fix the cyan drift with various CV lenses. I haven't tested the Zeiss lenses for this yet. This emulation, while I don't see it ever being supported by any of these manufacturers, can be very effective.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Guy - "But it is hurting a lot of users" - Is it ? Who ? Why ? Is it price ? If it is I have no sympathy. If it's because the camera can't handle earlier Leica glass of longer focal length then I do have sympathy but such is progress.

 

It's not a question of sympathy, it's a question of good business for Leica. All my lenses are Leica and soon all will be coded. So I personally won't use this feature. So why do I expend so much energy advocating for it? Because now that I have invested in the M8 I have a selfish vested interest in seeing the M8 being a long term success and Leica being a healthy growing company.

 

Leica's dependence on an ever smaller base of aging wealthy amatuers has brought it to the brink of extinction on more then one occaision. That business model has already failed. I didn't buy the M to become a member of some exclusive club for well heeled elitists. I bought into the platform because it not only is a great tool but it seemed to be backed by a newly invigorated company determined to return Leica to the mainstream of photography, focused on the needs of photographers, not collectors and status seekers. At least that was the message of Leica management. That's the vision I signed up for.

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I think Leica should provide a menu option too, but I'm not going to sweat it. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that some outfit like Nik will come up with a plugin for Photoshop that'll solve the problem with virtually any lens you can hook onto the M8. It's pretty clear that software can't solve the IR problem, but if the cyan shift can be corrected in camera it can be corrected in post-processing software. Just like the guys who took three days to break an encryption system the U.S. government spent a couple years and several million dollars to develop, someone will do it.

 

To be sure, it can be done in post but there are two caveats:

 

1) The RAW file output by the M8 has already gone to 8-bits so processes in post production don't have access to the same picture data as the camera itself has access to.

 

2) One would need to remember what lens and what aperture was used for every exposure. As Guy, myself and perhaps some others have argued - that's not a good workflow for professional jobs.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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That is of course their traditional customer base. Not long ago one of their spokesmen said: We will not build an entry level camera, we regard our used ones as such, or words to that effect. If the your economic reasonig is correct the ideal moment to introduce such an option would be when sales slacked off. Not now.

 

The M8 is still somewhat in the limelight right now. It's a very good time to attract new customers, including those who have never used a rangefinder camera.

 

To be sure, cost is an important difference among the Leica, Zeiss and CV lenses but it isn't the only reason that one might choose one over another. Some people prefer a given lens because of the way it draws, the way it handles contrast, it's size, weight, etc. I don't think many would argue with the assertion that the Leica M-mount lenses, as a group, are possibly the best small-format lenses ever made. That said, there are cases where (independent of cost) one might prefer a Zeiss 25 over the Leica 24, etc. No lens is perfect and two different photographers may not have the same priorities for a given lens. So choice is good. Having options is good.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Guy - "But it is hurting a lot of users" - Is it ? Who ? Why ? Is it price ? If it is I have no sympathy. If it's because the camera can't handle earlier Leica glass of longer focal length then I do have sympathy but such is progress.

 

This kind of attitude is the same one that keeps Leica from expanding its customer base. Leica has been in and out of receivership, and in and out of Germany several times (once controlling interest by Hermes Leather) so they need to be cautious of who they exclude as a customer. Maybe in the past a fanatical devotion of a small number of buyers would sustain them, paying astronomical prices for marginal increases in quality of Japanese (more sophisticated) equipment- that may be difficult to do these days. I realize they are a small niche company, but as such are much more sensitive to market fluctuations. Considering their market blunder of the M8 (camera failures, green blobs, ineffective IR filter) where the camera was released to market prior to proper testing, Leica needs all the market share they can get. The non-user coding is hurting many users for price, and if you are swimming in money that you can afford all leica glass, then good for you. I am a well paid Neurologist with a physician wife, and I find it ridiculous to pay $3500 for a single Leica lens when Zeiss glass is 1/3 the cost and CV is 1/10th with excellent results (see Sean Reid's articles). The quality of this non-Leica glass is plenty fine for me, and if the truth be told, I am sure many a professional photographer uses Zeiss and CV glass and no one knows the difference. I am not professional photographer, but a well-heeled enough amateur to spend $5K on the M8 body, but not want to spend $20K on an equivalent set of Leica glass- it would have kept me from buying the camera in the first place. I may buy one Leica lens in the future, but TODAY I am buying Leica accessories and enjoying the camera without Leica glass.

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The M8 is still somewhat in the limelight right now. It's a very good time to attract new customers, including those who have never used a rangefinder camera.

 

To be sure, cost is an important difference among the Leica, Zeiss and CV lenses but it isn't the only reason that one might choose one over another. Some people prefer a given lens because of the way it draws, the way it handles contrast, it's size, weight, etc. I don't think many would argue with the assertion that the Leica M-mount lenses, as a group, are possibly the best small-format lenses ever made. That said, there are cases where (independent of cost) one might prefer a Zeiss 25 over the Leica 24, etc. No lens is perfect and two different photographers may not have the same priorities for a given lens. So choice is good. Having options is good.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

 

We're discussing it here. I'm sure it is being discussed in the Leica boardroom. The majority opinion here seems to be: should be done, won't hurt might help. It will be interesting to see what the end result will be! :)

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We're discussing it here. I'm sure it is being discussed in the Leica boardroom. The majority opinion here seems to be: should be done, won't hurt might help. It will be interesting to see what the end result will be! :)

 

Bottomline ... Leica should add menu choices for as many Leica lenses as possible - if not all of them.

 

Once that's in place, folks won't have much difficulties in matching one profile to any existing M39 or M bayonet lens.

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The adoption of a menu driven lens selection system should also benefit the upcoming "R10" as well ... especially when it could be a bloody high-tech AF monster, then people won't ask again, how we are gonna do with buckets of older lenses.

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Look at the pool of potential customers. For most the almost 5K M8 is a major purchase but not out of line with the cost of top DSLR's. But an additional $6,000 for 2 primes? that will be a deal killer for not just a few. However if they could purchase the M8 and use it with a 'cheap' CV? Then Leica wins a customer who once the M8 is paid off will start fantasizing about how they can get one of those new ASPH lenses without the spouse killing them. Blow that customer off and let them sink their money and future purchases into another platform and the opportunity to sell them more Leica gear is gone forever.

 

The same goes for pro's already invested in Canon/Nikon. Add an M8 now to the kit? For many it's a financial stretch, but once that M8 is in the bag Leica has a customer for life. Why put up financial barriers to getting more Leica's in more photographers hands?

 

Think of the M8 as the seed stock of the new Leica. Plant more seeds today, reap more fruit tomorrow.

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