Leica stubborness will hurt sales

[sean_reid]

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Just a note: I have an extra 9cm old Leitz adapter, but need a 13.5cm. Anybody wants a trade? Send me a email...

 

I'll swap with you if the adapter is in good shape. I'll e-mail.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Good news LJ and worth taking a break working on this tax stuff. Think I can write this forum off by chance, man I would be rich the time i spend here. LOL

 

Just a side note i sent a email to TonyRose that hold all 49mm filters for members of the LUF with WATE lenses. LOL Hell I can ask anything but getting it is a different story

[sean_reid]

Guy,

I just stepped outside to take a quick test shot with the ZM 25/2.8, coded as a Lecia 24/2.8, and using a Leica 46mm UV/IR filter. (Have not tested the B+W 486 yet.) Trying to get other stuff done right now, but my very fist impression is that it is very, very clean to the corners. No cyan cast that I can see at all. (I made sure I had some white clouds in the corners of the frame.) This is what I was hoping for when I bought the Zeiss well before the filter/cyan issue became an issue. Very sharp, clean looking images from this, as Sean has shown in his testing. A bit more contrasty than the Leica, but tack sharp in the corners that the Leica almost gets, but not quite. When I shoot this with a filter but NOT coded, the cyan is more than I will tolerate. This is a case where the filter AND coding again makes an outstanding lense very usable for color work now with the recommended filters. Could not use this as comfortably before, but it now may become my favorite lens for approximately 32-33mm equivalent angle of view. I like this.

 

LJ

 

I'm very glad to hear it. That's a great lens.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[newyorkone]

Well, I'm fighting for everybody, at the risk of being yelled at by people like you.

 

I am raising an important issue. Okay, the problem is complex, but I'm hoping Leica will tackle it sooner rather than later. So, yes, I insist.

 

No you are not! You're not fighting for ME because I don't agree with you at all.

 

Your expectations are ridiculous. You use non-Leica lenses and you expect Leica to accommodate you. Absurd.

 

Sell your M8 and stop spamming this usually productive forum. No one is holding a gun to your head and saying that you should stick with Leica. If you don't like how things are AS THEY STAND, then get out of the system. You clearly are not happy with the camera when the majority of us are happy and getting great results without filters and without coding.

[sean_reid]

I don't think anyone here can speak for what the majority of people want (short of doing a survey with a high response rate, etc.). Clearly, people have different views on this topic but I think we should keep the discussion civil and respectful, as the rules for this forum require. Hamman is not spamming anyone, he's just arguing for his point of view as people naturally do. I don't mind what viewpoints people hold on this topic but lets please cool down the personal insults, etc.

 

Sean

[sisoje]

I don't think anyone here can speak for what the majority of people want (short of doing a survey with a high response rate, etc.). Clearly, people have different views on this topic but I think we should keep the discussion civil and respectful, as the rules for this forum require. Hamman is not spamming anyone, he's just arguing for his point of view as people naturally do. I don't mind what viewpoints people hold on this topic but lets please cool down the personal insults, etc.

 

Sean

 

 

Amen to that!

[andybarton]

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Perhaps if everyone who contributes to this thread could just take 5 minutes thought time before posting, this may not get out of hand?

 

I'll close the thread if people continue to insult one another.

 

Please, read the rules, and take any personal stuff outside the forum.

 

Thanks

 

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Thanks Andy

 

BTW Popflash looks like they have 39 and 46 mm IR Leica filters in stock.

 

Also i have seen two adapters on e-bay for CV lenses, look at some really small shops that never heard of the M8 . LOL

[wilfredo]

Oliver,

 

I for one appreciate your efforts. If more lens options were available, that would increase the sale of M8 camera bodies (not that they are hurting). The coding system won't stop me from using non Leica lenses. I have a 50mm Hexanon that is doing just fine without the coding. I'll just live without the coding, and yes it does leave a bad feeling in my gut that Leica could show more appreciation for its customer base, and yet chooses not to.

I think our loyalty to Leica is greater than theirs to us, and they seem to think they will make more money for the company by not allowing the manual lens profiling option. We live in a world of bottom lines driven by profits. Leica is no different. As I said, I'll still purchase non-Leica lenses, probably that CV15, or 21 or both, and not worry about coding.

 

Cheers,

Wilfredo

Benitez-Rivera Photography

[DaveSee]

Lens coding is kruft, a gimmick in software that should be passed on to post-processing... now /that/ is an interesting legal meeting What? It's a camera!

Hi Dave,

 

Try to picture prepping a set of 1000 files for a client (not uncommon for a wedding shoot) and then, for each exposure, either:

 

A) Recalling the exact lens and aperture used for that picture

 

Fiddling with each exposure until the cyan-drift correction "looks right"

 

Try it once and I'll bet that you'll never do it again. I'm speaking from extensive direct experience. I think Guy can help explain this aspect as well.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

Yes, I get it: the sheer scale and magnitude of a project of many hundreds of files. I do not agree that anyone would fiddle with what could be programmed away, with exception to a few images... and for these exceptions, likely some fiddling would be required of an image using the "menu selected correction" too. Would you never forget to change the menu selection when you change a lens?

 

So, when you change a lens... change an SD card. A project of thousands of files likely has tens of SD cards used... do you carry more than 7 lenses?

 

I fully agree that it would be swell to have at least the lens added to the EXIF data of an image, but I've already found a work-around for that and add it in during my pre-post-processing.

 

I know you'll find these methods far less attractive than a menu selection method, but I do not believe this menu method will be accurate, consistent and efficient enough to implement. Better not at all than poorly done.

 

rgds,

Dave

[Jamie Roberts]

Hi Dave,

 

Try to picture prepping a set of 1000 files for a client (not uncommon for a wedding shoot) and then, for each exposure, either:

 

A) Recalling the exact lens and aperture used for that picture

 

Fiddling with each exposure until the cyan-drift correction "looks right"

 

Try it once and I'll bet that you'll never do it again. I'm speaking from extensive direct experience. I think Guy can help explain this aspect as well.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

(hey Sean! Were you away or something? Welcome back! Or not, if I'm having a senior moment!! LOL)

 

Anyway--On Topic--regardless of what Leica does I'd still like to see all the lens corrections in post, thanks.

 

I bet C1 can do this (and other lens corrections) as effectively or more than doing it in camera--and that's not saying anything bad about Leica. But hey--most people's Macs or Windows machines these days (and in days to come) are much more powerful at processing than the camera software.

 

So I'd like to see C1 implement the same kind of thing they have to fix this on MF backs.

 

Would it be a problem for weddings (especially)?

 

Well perhaps, though I'm not sure I'd ever deliver 1000+ files to a client all shot under 35mm And I tend to shoot with lenses pretty regularly; I'm not always switching lenses quickly on the M8 (I am sometimes); more often I'm switching cameras for a different perspective

 

Anyway, for my C1 workflow, at 35mm and above, for proofing, the vignette is negligible and not worth fixing.

 

So for my workflow, a post process RAW fix would be just fine. Heck, I already adjust white balance

 

Once I get to actually creating finished art, then I worry about lens corrections and vignetting etc..

 

Having said all that, a menu fix for the most popular focal lengths under 35mm would be a nice to have on the M8--no doubt about it!

[sean_reid]

(hey Sean! Were you away or something? Welcome back! Or not, if I'm having a senior moment!! LOL)

 

Anyway--On Topic--regardless of what Leica does I'd still like to see all the lens corrections in post, thanks.

 

I bet C1 can do this (and other lens corrections) as effectively or more than doing it in camera--and that's not saying anything bad about Leica. But hey--most people's Macs or Windows machines these days (and in days to come) are much more powerful at processing than the camera software.

 

Hi Jamie,

 

Thanks, I was travelling for photographic projects during March and the first week of April. C1 4.0 is likely going to be able to do some pretty amazing things but...and this is important...the program has no way of knowing what lens (uncoded) was used on the M8 or what aperture that lens was used at. As such, it would have a hard time doing any kind of batched corrections because there would be a mixture of apertures, lenses, etc. That is unless it can magically figure out what to do with the cyan drift and vignetting using its own analysis (ind. of lens data) - which I suppose might not be impossible but it would be a major accomplishment.

 

I actually do a lot of my wedding work with a 28 and a 35 - sometimes a 50 at the longest (on the M8). I wouldn't want to have to sort through my shoot, move all the pictures that I thought were made with the 50 into one folder, all the wider ones into another, then guess which lens was used for which, which aperture...it would be a nightmare.

 

Right now, Melissa and I bring everything from the shoot (from both photographers, all cameras, etc.) into one large folder. Canon DSLRs, M8, R-D1...they all go into the pile together. I then order them by time stamp to see how the day played out in pictures. I burn backups to archival DVDs and then start editing in Breezebrowser. All the RAW files that make the edit go into C1 (all of our cameras are supported by C1) and I work from there. Correcting a large shoot like that for cyan drift etc...no thank you! <G>

 

FW 1.102 is actually doing a very good job (in my testing so far) at producing a good (hassle-free) RAW file straight from the camera. What I'm seeing from the camera leaves me to do WB (which I can usually sub-batch visually) and tweaks here and there.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[hammam]

Olivier,

 

Look up John Millich on this forum and PM him with your concern. He may have some interesting ideas for you. For your 21 and 28 CV lenses, start looking for two Leitz 9 cm adapters (no notches).

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

Thank you, Sean, I'll look into this. I'm sorry, but I don't know a thing about older screw mount to M mount adaptors. What exactly are theses "no notches" adaptors? And aren't they getting very scarce?

[hammam]

People who charge 5000 for their camera should listen to the requests of their paying customers. The customer is always right. Simple but true. If it is a huge technical hurdle to put in menu driven lense selection, fine. But I don'tbelieve it is. I have seen many express a desire to see this modification. So what is the big deal?

 

Moreover, they should know that most people who buy alternate lenses wind up buying Leica lenses sooner or later.

 

Absolutely.

[hammam]

Well said.

 

To that I would add that the old product-centric inward looking model of business is dead. Successful businesses today are focused on the customer. I think the new management at Leica understands that so I am optimistic that they will eventually find a way to keep the system attractive to the broadest possible number of photographers.

 

Amen to that. Thanks, Hank, for your very invigorating views on the subject.

[hammam]

And with respect to the comments about doing the adjustments in post....personally, that is the wrong way to think about this. The more that can be done to the captured bits BEFORE they are written to a file for later adjustment and use, especially with respect to this cyan contamination issue, the better. While many, if not most of us shoot RAW/DNG files, not everybody does, and that may still be a huge part of Leica's exisiting and future sales base. I ran into several guys this weekend that were thinking about the M8, but are not interested in sending off their lenses for coding, nor do they want to buy new coded lenses. They are not pros. They are casual users, yet their buying decisions are based on how easy the camera is to use and how usable their existing equipment is. They probably are not too concerned with vignetting, but they are appalled about color and especially cyan contaminations from using filters. They were even quite unhappy about having to use filters to start, but understand that trade-off. They are not liking the other trade-off of not being able to get good color capture without new and expesnive processes or gear. They shoot JPEGs. They want to be able to print what they shoot easily, not having to use two, three or more special computer tools to make corrections to the images. These are the kinds of folks that account for a lot of Leica sales. That has been true for all camera companies. The pros may drive feature demand, but they usaully do not drive lots sales, exceept for recommending to others. If a more casual user is confronted with a very complicated and increasingly more expensive set of options only, they will not buy into the M8. Leica wanted to make it great and keep it relatively simple....a menu for selecting a limited number of focal lengths to apply in-camera color corrections for uncoded lenses, Leica or non-Leica, for use with recommeded filters can only help Leica at this point.

 

Just my thinking on this.

 

LJ

 

Right, LJ. This is exactly along the lines of my initial post.

[hammam]

... They state post after post the same thing although people come up with answers and solution they obviously do not read or understand or just prefer to ignore so they can come up with the same nagging again and again.

 

Anyway I'll follow others' advice about not reading posts that are just there to wind us up.

 

Sorry again for that.

 

Eric

 

How about putting it this way:«... although people come up with answers and solutions they don't agree with»?

 

As for «...posts that are just there to wind you up», believe me, my dear Eric, at 64, I have much better things to do than waste my time posting here just to «wind you up». Especially since you seem to wind you up yourself pretty easily

[hammam]

That is a Summicron-C 40/f2 right and that lens was made for the Leica CL, correct.

If you find a filter that fits this lens let me know because a regular filter will not screw on to it. I know I have that lens and I have not been able to find any filters for it let alone a IR blocking filter.

Not sure about the Summiron but does that have eyes?

As for the Minolta, well it is a Minolta. Although it has a Leica M mount it to was made for the Leica/Minolta CL. Not that you can't use the CL lenses on M cameras but these cameras and lenses have been out of production for around 30 years and the lenses were never intended to be used on the real M bodies.

 

Ed, I do use a regular 39 filter on my Cron 40. Granted, I can't screw it in more than a couple of turns because of the different pitch, but it stays in place, and it works. Try it.

[hammam]

Oliver,

 

I for one appreciate your efforts. If more lens options were available, that would increase the sale of M8 camera bodies (not that they are hurting). The coding system won't stop me from using non Leica lenses. I have a 50mm Hexanon that is doing just fine without the coding. I'll just live without the coding, and yes it does leave a bad feeling in my gut that Leica could show more appreciation for its customer base, and yet chooses not to.

I think our loyalty to Leica is greater than theirs to us, and they seem to think they will make more money for the company by not allowing the manual lens profiling option. We live in a world of bottom lines driven by profits. Leica is no different. As I said, I'll still purchase non-Leica lenses, probably that CV15, or 21 or both, and not worry about coding.

 

Cheers,

Wilfredo

Benitez-Rivera Photography

 

Thanks, Wilfredo.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[barjohn]

Ed, I do use a regular 39 filter on my Cron 40. Granted, I can't screw it in more than a couple of turns because of the different pitch, but it stays in place, and it works. Try it.

 

 

The B&W 40.5MM should work fine if it has the same filter mount as the Minolta varient that I have.