Leica stubborness will hurt sales

[waterlenz]

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I personally have no issue with a menu option for specific focal lengths and do hope they do it. My issue is people more demanding it than calling it a closed system. no one from leica has called it a closed system and like I said it will probably comes in time but getting this camera to a neutral state is a moral and ethical situation for the end users and all there resources are devoted to getting it working as fast as possible, I think we are bitching way to soon for having it is bascically what i have been saying fixing it is first anything optional will and should be second . Now next firmware maybe this can happen but right now , there was no time for it given the IR issue that took them over . Now on the subject of specific focal lengths for optional non coded lenses is you may be able to pick a 24mm lens that is leica 24mm specific and it may work very well with a Zeiss 25mm or it may not and reason i said it maybe a crap shoot. But i do agree with Sean it is probably closer than we think too. This is something that we just have to try and see what works and what does not.We already established some that work very well with either a B+W and/or a Leica filter coded to a certain focal length of leica glass, so the use of the Zeiss and CV lenses will most likely work just fine but again as it stands today without a menu option you need to find a way to code them. Now as users we will continue to ask for the menu options but now that 1.1102 is on the streets and the M8 is in a neutral state than leica can add optional stuff to it but expecting it today is and never was going to happen. It is a optional item for Leica and if they do it , it will will be becuase we asked for it and no other reason and Leica would want to do it, not becuase they have too. That's all i have been trying to say

 

Why can't one have a Zeiss lens coded like a Leica lens? Someone will step up to the plate and offer this service. The menu bit will then be redundant and thus not necessary. It seems to be already possible to switch out the lens mount so that the correct lines will be activated. It may be that the Z 25mm works better with a cut filter other than Leica's. The 486 appears to be is a bit stronger, the Heliopan may be a bit weaker, the Tiffen hot mirror weaker still. Lots of different combos to try for fine tuning.

Tom

[waterlenz]

Tom not sure anyone has tried this but maybe some protective coating on top of the sharpie marks from wearing off so quickly . I was thinking clear nail polish but that may not work or may work. Maybe someone can try something or suggest something to make the marks last or find a nice mill shop up there.

 

One will not want to make it thick as it would upset the lens position on the body. Anyway, it is not too difficult to add more Sharpie. All one has to do is make sure the focal length is reading through via 'Info' every once in a while or at least at the start of a shoot. A new rationale for chimping ;->

Tom

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

I agree Tom , I think the easiest solution is code the lens to the leica comparable and go with it. The probelm is some of the old screw thread lenses and lenses that may have a screw on the mount that gets in the way. Here is what i told leica since they have the WATE in there and have 16,18,21 than add 24, 28 and 35mm and call it a day and make that a one button option hit, set and it stays there until you change it or if you put a coded lens on than it automatically takes over and uses its code for that lens. Some wanted 50 and above but i don't see a real value as long as the IR is on and you have the On/IR option selected it should be fine my 75 lux and 90 apo are not coded and they work fine like that

[Guest guy_mancuso]

One will not want to make it thick as it would upset the lens position on the body. Anyway, it is not too difficult to add more Sharpie. All one has to do is make sure the focal length is reading through via 'Info' every once in a while or at least at the start of a shoot. A new rationale for chimping ;->

Tom

 

Maybe put a mark on the side of the mount so you will know exactly were it is for redrawing it.

[hammam]

Well I am in Montreal and I received my 2 filters a couple of weeks ago. Also you got your camera long after all of these issues were known so you could have backed out at any time so there is no point in talking about money spent. I wouldn't be surprised if you see this option in a firmware update down the road but they need to fix the known problems before adding options.

 

Sorry, Tim, but when I first ordered the M8 (early November 2006) and, mostly, when I received it (early February 2007) the correction of the cyan drift via the use of coded Leica lenses and Leica filters exclusively was not documented or known. Leica have confirmed this when they released fimware 1.102, which is very recently. Until then, many people thought the B+W filters would be fine, as would be third party lenses somehow. Also, I love many aspects of the M8 and I don't want to part from it. This is not a reason why I shouldn't look for a better solution to the cyan drift and to the coding.

 

You received your filters? Lucky you. If I remember well you received your M8 somewhere late November 2006. Am I correct? That makes four months.

[waterlenz]

The reality of the coding issue this that it is only critical for WA with IR cut filters and there are not really all that many lens models out there. The very old ones are not really up to digital use, too.

 

One could establish, by trial and error, the correct parameters for the M8 FW, and introduce them a bit like recombinant DNA. A few folks have already taken the FW apart and compared the data among versions. It would take a computer savvy person but it probably not be impossible to add a few lens codes into the FW tables for non-Leica lenses; apparently not all the numbers are currently being used. I do not think this is rocket science. One would just establish codes for the few WA’s out there that folks want to use, insert into FW, code the lenses and away you go!

Tom

[canlogic]

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The reality of the coding issue this that it is only critical for WA with IR cut filters and there are not really all that many lens models out there. The very old ones are not really up to digital use, too.

 

One could establish, by trial and error, the correct parameters for the M8 FW, and introduce them a bit like recombinant DNA. A few folks have already taken the FW apart and compared the data among versions. It would take a computer savvy person but it probably not be impossible to add a few lens codes into the FW tables for non-Leica lenses; apparently not all the numbers are currently being used. I do not think this is rocket science. One would just establish codes for the few WA’s out there that folks want to use, insert into FW, code the lenses and away you go!

Tom

 

I received mine 2nd week of Nov (I think) and registered for the filters sometime in December. At that time they said they would ship to me in Feb and also that the firmware would be coming for use with the filters. I think everyone knew in December that the firmware update and filters would be needed thats why they offered the lens discount to anyone who paid for their camera before years end. Anyway I would bet they will put the option in the menus but not until the other problems are fixed.

[telyt]

I would bet they will put the option in the menus but not until the other problems are fixed.

 

This wouldn't surprise me at all. Being in software development I'll release the software once the most critical issues are resolved, then release another update once the extra stuff is stable.

[FastFashnReloaded]

Makes the R-D1 sound better and better. Leica's got to get smarter than this. They could learn something from the history of microcomputers. Open source attitudes let the PC and Windows become world standards while Apple, with its exclusivity and protectionism had a hard time surviving until they opened things up a bit. I remember, back in the 80s, when you could buy a hard drive for a PC for about two thirds the price Apple charged for the same drive. The difference was a few binary words on the boot track that had to be there for the thing to work on an Apple. Nowadays a lot of people doing graphics prefer the Apple, but the world standard is the PC, because the stuff you can buy for the PC isn't proprietary.

 

RSL, have you checked Apple's share price vs Microsoft's?

 

More people buy Toyotas that Porsches, even though both have four wheels and an IC engine. Does that make the Toyota a better handling, faster car?

 

Your diary posting is about... Four years out of date. "the world standard is the PC" Phhht.

[sean_reid]

I have seen the medium format analogy in other contexts, especially after the D2X came from Nikoners. It seems that from about 10MP with good lenses the IQ is very close to medium format film. I shot mostly hassy in the 80's and 90's and have to agree.

 

I think the Sharpie route will be easier than entering data via menu IMHO, based on using the Nikon D2 series which go the menu route (mainly for exif, no effect on exposure, CA correction, or vignette correction that I have been able to discern). BTW one can do the 'Sharpie thing' on after-market lenses too. I am over 50 and that may have something to do with my preference as I do not use my reading glasses when shooting as I otherwise have 20/20 vision, other issues too - such as fogging, it is cold here. I like the large lettering on the menus as they are for this reason - not too bad even w/o glasses.

 

Adding more menus is problematic from having more to scroll through, for example when formatting a card, I have cycled through a couple of time looking to stop at the right item. I like the Spartan interface of the M8. BTW I find the wheel interface for zooming in on the image (blow-up) far more effective than what Nikon does for the same thing. Though I will keep my N stuff, for tele, macro & micro, and expecially underwater use (need for AF here), I will be very curious about the R10 because of this interface and could take the plunge

Tom

 

The problem with the Sharpies is that the marks wear off. Manual selection of lens mounted means adding only one item to the menu ("Specify Lens" for example). The choices within that menu section would tie into the lens information that the M8 *already* stores and already calls up when codes are triggered. People who had no use for this manual lens selection could simply ignore that item on the menu, just as I currently ignore certain menu options which aren't relevant to my work.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Sean, thank you for adding your well informed and quiet voice to this hotly debated thread. There have been a couple of people who share at least part of my ideas, but for the most part, I have been pretty roughed up by some agressive members, and even yelled at, just for expressing my disagreement with Leica not wanting to implement a menu system for lens coding. For a while I thought I was on photo.net's Leica forum.

 

Your solution could be viable, if there is no other way. Let them offer a selection of Leica lenses in the menu, and if people want to try these menu codes with third-party lenses, it'll be at their risks. No problem with that. But at least I will be given the chance.

 

It gets like that here now and again. No worries. I'm fully aware that my support of manual lens specification by menu isn't popular with everyone but ...oh well.

 

If Leica allows the options to match the lenses which they've already researched corrections for then they'll be doing a service to the many photographers who own "uncoded" copies of those lenses. They'll also be providing a way for creative owners to work with LTM lenses, etc.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

While I'd like to see Leica provide a menu option to apply the current built-in vignetting/cyan correction tables to non-coded lenses, I think an ability to apply the (IR/cut filter) red channel vignetting correction at the RAW conversion stage would be a huge long-term benefit to the M8 community. I'd certainly be first in line to purchase a licence for the first RAW conversion software that offers this.

 

That's been discussed often and is interesting but it might require us to memorize what lens was used for each exposure we make (as well as what approximate aperture). Of course we could hand-tweak each correction but I know that I wouldn't be up for that when preparing 1000 pictures for a client.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Tom not sure anyone has tried this but maybe some protective coating on top of the sharpie marks from wearing off so quickly . I was thinking clear nail polish but that may not work or may work. Maybe someone can try something or suggest something to make the marks last or find a nice mill shop up there.

 

Hi Guy,

 

It would be nice if that could work but the thicker the layer gets (marker, clear nail polish, etc.) the more prone it is to rubbing off. That area is meant to be metal to metal with virtually no gap.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Why can't one have a Zeiss lens coded like a Leica lens? Someone will step up to the plate and offer this service. The menu bit will then be redundant and thus not necessary. It seems to be already possible to switch out the lens mount so that the correct lines will be activated. It may be that the Z 25mm works better with a cut filter other than Leica's. The 486 appears to be is a bit stronger, the Heliopan may be a bit weaker, the Tiffen hot mirror weaker still. Lots of different combos to try for fine tuning.

Tom

 

There are important patent issues that come into play. It's one thing for an individual to machine (or have machined) a few of his or her own lenses but quite another for a company to sell this coding or make lenses that include it.

 

As for the mix and match of "lens X" + "filter Y" + "code Z" that's absolutely the case and the results of those experiments can be shared within this community. Based on what I'm seeing so far, several CV lenses (for example) work quite well with a 486 and FW 1.102

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

One will not want to make it thick as it would upset the lens position on the body. Anyway, it is not too difficult to add more Sharpie. All one has to do is make sure the focal length is reading through via 'Info' every once in a while or at least at the start of a shoot. A new rationale for chimping ;->

Tom

 

Speaking as someone who's been hand-coding a lot of lenses for a few months now...it gets to be a pain. Sometimes, just a little bit of the code will rub off and the lens may or may not be detected, etc. It's fine for casual use but not reliable for professional work, IMHO.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Sorry, Tim, but when I first ordered the M8 (early November 2006) and, mostly, when I received it (early February 2007) the correction of the cyan drift via the use of coded Leica lenses and Leica filters exclusively was not documented or known. Leica have confirmed this when they released fimware 1.102, which is very recently. Until then, many people thought the B+W filters would be fine, as would be third party lenses somehow. Also, I love many aspects of the M8 and I don't want to part from it. This is not a reason why I shouldn't look for a better solution to the cyan drift and to the coding.

 

You received your filters? Lucky you. If I remember well you received your M8 somewhere late November 2006. Am I correct? That makes four months.

 

Based on what I'm seeing so far, B+W 486 filters may be fine for most 24 mm and longer lenses.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

The reality of the coding issue this that it is only critical for WA with IR cut filters and there are not really all that many lens models out there. The very old ones are not really up to digital use, too.

 

One could establish, by trial and error, the correct parameters for the M8 FW, and introduce them a bit like recombinant DNA. A few folks have already taken the FW apart and compared the data among versions. It would take a computer savvy person but it probably not be impossible to add a few lens codes into the FW tables for non-Leica lenses; apparently not all the numbers are currently being used. I do not think this is rocket science. One would just establish codes for the few WA’s out there that folks want to use, insert into FW, code the lenses and away you go!

Tom

 

The coding is important for 35 mm and wider lenses, as you suggest. The older lenses can be beautiful on digital, as we began to see with the R-D1.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[waterlenz]

Speaking as someone who's been hand-coding a lot of lenses for a few months now...it gets to be a pain. Sometimes, just a little bit of the code will rub off and the lens may or may not be detected, etc. It's fine for casual use but not reliable for professional work, IMHO.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

I agree. I think only a permanently coded lens would be used a pro. The menu selection method is as reliable as the sharpie approach IMHO based on my use of the Nikon D2 series that offer an analogous approach. If one is anal-rententive it might not be an issue.

Tom

[waterlenz]

Speaking as someone who's been hand-coding a lot of lenses for a few months now...it gets to be a pain. Sometimes, just a little bit of the code will rub off and the lens may or may not be detected, etc. It's fine for casual use but not reliable for professional work, IMHO.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Accessing a menu is no less so.

Tom

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[waterlenz]

There are important patent issues that come into play. It's one thing for an individual to machine (or have machined) a few of his or her own lenses but quite another for a company to sell this coding or make lenses that include it.

 

As for the mix and match of "lens X" + "filter Y" + "code Z" that's absolutely the case and the results of those experiments can be shared within this community. Based on what I'm seeing so far, several CV lenses (for example) work quite well with a 486 and FW 1.102

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

A compromise might be for someone to machine the separate lens mounts for the Zeiss lenses, there are only three possible, and sell them, or have folks send them to the machinist as is being done with the LTM adapters. The end user would then fill in the holes.

Tom