The Sony A7 thread [Merged]

[jzy11]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I don't know whether it matters to you, but apparently some of the tracking features are only available on the a7. According to the link Andy provided a few posts back, the higher ISO performance is better on the A7 too. It seems that higher resolution aside, the A7 may well be the better camera for some.

 

i didn't get to play with some of the tracking features, but there is no question that the A7 focuses faster, just that the difference is very minimal, in my view.

 

on pixel level, i agree that the A7 will have lower noise. However as it is often argued (and proven) in the D800 vs the 5d3 high ISO noise debates, once you resize the larger A7r picture to 24mp, my guess is that A7 will no longer have the lower noise advantage.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[naturephoto1]

I believe that there have been more pre-orders for the A7r than for the A7.

 

Rich

[dwbell]

i didn't get to play with some of the tracking features, but there is no question that the A7 focuses faster, just that the difference is very minimal, in my view.

 

on pixel level, i agree that the A7 will have lower noise. However as it is often argued (and proven) in the D800 vs the 5d3 high ISO noise debates, once you resize the larger A7r picture to 24mp, my guess is that A7 will no longer have the lower noise advantage.

 

There's samples in a you tube video that puts the A7 high ISO noise advantage at 1/2 stop, before downsizing the A7R.

 

Part of me is thinking (hoping?) that one of each bodies covers speed, rez and redundancy - still at a lower price point than one M240.

[jzy11]

There's samples in a you tube video that puts the A7 high ISO noise advantage at 1/2 stop, before downsizing the A7R.

 

Part of me is thinking (hoping?) that one of each bodies covers speed, rez and redundancy - still at a lower price point than one M240.

 

yup, i saw it too, think it was done by the CamerastoreTV, although he was shooting jpeg.

 

if it is indeed only a half stop advantage to the A7, then im reasonably confident that a resized A7r file (to the same resolution as the A7 file) will be cleaner.

[Peter H]

.........

 

Part of me is thinking (hoping?) that one of each bodies covers speed, rez and redundancy - still at a lower price point than one M240.

 

Needing to have two bodies to get the best out of the design would be so disappointing though. For me, it would be a total turn-off.

 

I think that, like so many people say each time a new Leica M digital is announced, that it's not quite there yet and I'll wait for the next version. When they can resolve the issues that clearly mean that neither sensor is quite capable enough to sustain the potential strengths of the body design and available lenses, they'll have a very attractive product. At the moment, it's feeling like its near but not quite there.

[dwbell]

Needing to have two bodies to get the best out of the design would be so disappointing though. For me, it would be a total turn-off.

 

I think that, like so many people say each time a new Leica M digital is announced, that it's not quite there yet and I'll wait for the next version. When they can resolve the issues that clearly mean that neither sensor is quite capable enough to sustain the potential strengths of the body design and available lenses, they'll have a very attractive product. At the moment, it's feeling like its near but not quite there.

 

I'm really not needing lightning fast 1DX AF, and the high ISO will be much better than my M240. So for my shooting the A7R will be fine (conditions apply, your house is at risk etc)

 

Besides, I had to cart 2xM bodies around anyway, so why not ever so flighty different strengths with the Sony?

 

I get what you mean though, and if I had to back one horse to develop the concept quickly, innovate etc.....well.

[AlanG]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

... but apparently some of the tracking features are only available on the a7....

 

That is not clear to me. The ad literature shows the various AF features and makes no distinction between models when listing the AF tracking and other AF features. On the other hand, the spec page list says "Focus point - 117 point phase detection AF and 25 point contrast detect" but does not bother to say the phase detect sensors are only on the A7. So perhaps there are other omissions or inaccurate statements.

 

Elsewhere it says the A7 uses the PD sensors to quickly get the focus close and then fine tunes the focus with contrast detect. And it says the A7r uses contrast detection AF only. Only some Sony lenses have the firmware to support the Hybrid focus of the A7. I think all of the E and FE mount lenses should support this but with Alpha lenses you probably want the EA4 SLT adapter. It is hard to know if third party lenses will support this if they have an E mount of for other lenses using any kind of adapter.

 

As for the possible noise advantage of the A7 at high ISOs, I think I'd have to try the two cameras under careful tests using raw and DXO which has great noise suppression. (Or your own favorite raw processor.) There is more to high ISO than just simply looking at the jpeg noise form somebody's out of camera comparison. (Since this can often be processed out anyway.) If one camera has more highlight and shadow detail via higher resolution and from a greater dynamic range, that would be a factor to consider also. It seems to me that if you are really concerned with the subtle differences between these cameras at high ISO, it would be worth exploring in detail and figuring out how to get the most out of both of them before forming a conclusion. (Which may not be very significant in the end.)

 

I am a little surprised that Sony does not very clearly illustrate the performance and imaging differences between the two models. Perhaps they will in the future. At the show, it was very common to hear people ask what the differences are.

 

I think it is very interesting that Sony came out with two versions of this camera. It makes me think about suggestions that Leica should have upgradeable chips and electronics for their bodies to help keep them current over time. So what are the odds that it would be possible for Leica to upgrade the FF sensor and support electronics in an M for less than these each of bodies cost?

[hyper67]

Well from my understanding of the AF differences is that the a7 is not only (albeit by a slight margin) faster but that it is more accurate...or is the term accuracy translated into speed in the end?! My decision between the two is based on the AF speed...and the electronic first curtain of the a7 really but AF is my number one priority...has anyone also heard the shutter on both and can comment...

[AlanG]

Well from my understanding of the AF differences is that the a7 is not only (albeit by a slight margin) faster but that it is more accurate...or is the term accuracy translated into speed in the end?! My decision between the two is based on the AF speed...and the electronic first curtain of the a7 really but AF is my number one priority...has anyone also heard the shutter on both and can comment...

 

I think the focus accuracy is the same because according to the literature, the A7 just uses PD to get the focus close.

 

I don't see anything that says the A7r does not have the option for electronic first curtain shutter. The brochure I have shows it as an on/off feature on both. Top sync speed is 1/250th on A7 and 1/160th on A7r

 

The shutters sounded the same to me. At the show, I could quickly switch between cameras and I couldn't really tell which was which in that kind of situation.

[dwbell]

Also worth noting that you can 'get' the PD focus on the A7R when you use one of the Sony adapter thingies. It has it inside it, with the semi translucent thingamajig. I don't talk Sony, sorry.

[leicatraveller]

i didn't get to play with some of the tracking features, but there is no question that the A7 focuses faster, just that the difference is very minimal, in my view.

 

on pixel level, i agree that the A7 will have lower noise. However as it is often argued (and proven) in the D800 vs the 5d3 high ISO noise debates, once you resize the larger A7r picture to 24mp, my guess is that A7 will no longer have the lower noise advantage.

 

i also think so

[algrove]

To me the AF Eye feature is important and from the brochure I saw through SonyRumours indicated that the Eye feature was available in both bodies since it did not say a7 or a7r (excluding one or the other) in the AF Eye features description.

[Rick]

Rick, some (very many) of the photos in your link are stunningly beautiful, and quite honestly, it makes me feel that the whole discussion is pretty-much irrelevant to the matter of photography. Although there may be other valid considerations such as economics of course.

 

Hello Peter, thanks for the nice comments about my photographs and I want to say I always enjoy reading your well reasoned comments.

 

But if its possible to make such wonderful photos, as it evidently is, then apart from saving a bit of money on future camera purchases, why should any Leica owner even be thinking about switching to another system?

 

In what ways might a Sony, for example, have enabled you to produce better photographs?

 

This last question is at the heart of the discussion for me. This new camera from Sony and comments by open-minded thinking forum members, like dwbell, have me thinking about what it is that Leica still offers me.

 

1. Variety of small high quality optics

 

2. Small camera with high quality FF sensor

 

3. Ease of use, haptic, User Interface, feeling of direct mechanical connection to operation

 

4. Reliable, good customer care, commitment to system

 

So, Peter, I defined my idea of what enables me to take better photographs and what is important for me in a camera system. This is what I'm looking for. I think it is important for all of us to sit down and firstly define where we are and who we are as photographers. I'm not a NFL sideline photographer. I'm not a wedding photographer or portrait photographer or a bird photographer. I'm just a guy walking around with a camera photographer... recording life's experiences and places while looking for a modicum of creative expression when I can squeeze one off. Everyone has their own list.

 

SONY vs LEICA:

 

1) On my list the lens is number one. I can't think of anything that is a total deal breaker for me. If, the optics are doggy... I just can't overlook the final product. Sure, I know, Holga. That idea of great pictures can be made with anything. Fine, I'm sure I could unlock some creativity by letting go of this technical anal-ity. But, I don't want to finger paint my way to great pictures.

 

And, they have to be small. That means MF. And, it means short registration distance. Sound like anything specific I'm talking about?

 

2) Small body, FF, and good sensor. That is the M and will likely be the A7/A7R for sure. The Sony may be a half step ahead, but don't let anyone tell you that the M is old technology. It stood toe to toe with my RX1 and held its own. I ended up liking the color, the ability to PP the files better and often the AWB on the M. The advantage I see in the new Sony is in the A7R and its higher pixel count for photographs where that is important... i.e. not needed unless you crop or print huge etc. The question we can't answer is whether or not the Sony sensor will play well with Leica M lenses - that wouldn't make me a better photographer.

 

3) Leica M has this all covered for me. I like the direct manual mechanical control.

For me, this is best. It is how I think and want to shoot.

 

I never signed up to be RickRF. I never even used a RF before the M8. I'd really like the Sony A7R to be a better, faster, easier way of focusing, framing and shooting M lenses. That would make me a jumper.

 

This is the only part of all of this that becomes a deal breaker, for me, is the RF. It is the fastest way right now for me to focus a RF coupled lens. But, it is often slow, difficult, impossible in low light and frames inaccurately. It also only works well for standard lenses. It is all at once the best and the worst. It is simplicity and complexity. Maybe, it is silly to believe in a concept that would be better than the RF which is so intrinsic to RF M lenses.

 

In the final distillation, it comes down to whether or not the Sony will allow me to use the small Leica M lenses better on the Sony than the M. To answer Peter's question, that would enable me to produce better photographs. And, I'd be a jumper of systems. If, it doesn't do all that, then it will just be another transient adjunct camera... for me.

[dwbell]

Very well written Rick.

 

I miss the old days, when we slung shit at each other. Hater vs Fanboy. So much easier. Less thinking required. I see you even play nice with K-H now? WTF?

[Stealth3kpl]

Hello Peter....................and I want to say I always enjoy reading your well reasoned comments.

 

+1

Pete

[MarkP]

In the final distillation, it comes down to whether or not the Sony will allow me to use the small Leica M lenses better on the Sony than the M. To answer Peter's question, that would enable me to produce better photographs.

 

Well distilled!

[Rick]

Very well written Rick.

 

I miss the old days, when we slung shit at each other. Hater vs Fanboy. So much easier. Less thinking required. I see you even play nice with K-H now? WTF?

 

You're still a dick... feel better?

 

Hey, just another thought for you. You do realize that switching systems is going to cost more like $10,000. 2500 for camera. Plus, we'll have to have a couple of AF Sony lenses at 3000 and some adaptors, filters, and Sony crap , I mean accessories. 600 for a Luigi case (I actually don't use one, but I know that is important for you:D). Then, the lens creep starts and it goes on and on.

 

Or, I can keep the M... and Mrs. RickLeica and myself can go on a lot more shadow hunting adventures with our M and RX1 and all the money we saved, while you buy the A7R and hold down the fort here in Leica Cyberland.

 

Who knows, maybe you and K-H could even branch out into Sony Cyberspace? How am I doing?

[k-hawinkler]

Very well written Rick.

 

I miss the old days, when we slung shit at each other. Hater vs Fanboy. So much easier. Less thinking required. I see you even play nice with K-H now? WTF?

 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[naturephoto1]

There is no real support for the Sony A7 and A7r files at this point except Sony's own which is causing some issues. You may wish to look at this link from Sony Alpha Rumors:

 

Sony A7r RAW file anlysis by Bart from Leica Boss | sonyalpharumors

 

Rich

[k-hawinkler]

There is no real support for the Sony A7 and A7r files at this point except Sony's own which is causing some issues. You may wish to look at this link from Sony Alpha Rumors:

 

Sony A7r RAW file anlysis by Bart from Leica Boss | sonyalpharumors

 

Rich

 

 

Rich,

 

Thank you so much.

This is very similar with my experiences with E-M1 files.

I switch off practically all in-camera processing and only use Nik for noise reduction and sharpening.

 

Here is a shot with Olympus OM-D E-M1 + Leica WATE 16-18-21/4

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!