wattsy Posted October 18, 2013 Share #981 Posted October 18, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Lower pixel density does not make camera shake magically disappear. Yes it does (well it doesn't make it disappear but it mitigates it) if you are in the habit of making comparisons at 100% on a screen. It is all about enlargement factors. If you enlarge something more (as you do when you up the pixel count for a given format size and view it at 100%) you will inevitably see more camera shake. Common sense really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 18, 2013 Posted October 18, 2013 Hi wattsy, Take a look here The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
thighslapper Posted October 18, 2013 Share #982 Posted October 18, 2013 We seem to be entering an era where we will be spoilt for choice.......and with digital output that far exceeds the needs of anyone but the most demanding pernickety photographer. Will the Sony A7r make you a better photographer ? I doubt it. Once the novelty of a new toy wears off the ultimate choice will be down to mundane and often trivial things like familiarity, button placement, menu structure and how it looks ...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted October 18, 2013 Share #983 Posted October 18, 2013 Higher megapixel, irrespective of pixel density, allows for a greater magnification which in turn shows more of what is there. Higher pixel density does not increase blur, camera movement increases blur. Higher pixel density will show more detail within that blur. And why is it academic? We all view images at 100% on screen. And since my work is printed large it is not, at all, academic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rirakuma Posted October 18, 2013 Share #984 Posted October 18, 2013 Did you mean the 55mm 1.8 or the 55mm 1.4. That thing is huge and it would look ridiculous on an A7R. Leica glass are great not only for their performance but also size. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted October 18, 2013 Share #985 Posted October 18, 2013 It's academic because nobody knows if he just managed the perfect moment of stillness on that picture. We can all do it from time to time, like when people claim to be able hand hold at 1/4 second, but getting lucky once doesn't make it a reliable and repeatable practice. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted October 18, 2013 Share #986 Posted October 18, 2013 For a given amount of camera shake (blur), a greater enlargement of the original will accentuate that blur more than a lesser enlargement. A 35mm sized sensor with 36MP is being enlarged more when viewed at 100% on screen than an equivalent sized sensor with 24MP (also viewed at 100%). Your P65+ when viewed at 100% shows a roughly equivalent enlargement to viewing a 24MP 35mm sensor at 100% (I've since done the maths – the larger sensor is 2.5x the area of the smaller). It's academic when making comparisons of equivalent enlargement. Where is Olaf when you need him? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted October 18, 2013 Share #987 Posted October 18, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) While you would have to pull both of my M240s from my cold dead hands, I do like the idea of another FF camera as a backup to use with my M lenses as well as the possibility of using AF lenses in the future if I felt like it. I also don't like to bracket shots on the M240 for the occasional HDR/Fusion, so the Sony could be a really high quality yet affordable beater as well. The old instinct was to pick up a Fuji for this reason because I like how the controls are most similar to the Leica. The only drawbacks are the lack of auto bracketing options (so have to do it manually), crop factor, and the wonky CFA they use. Anyone else thinking about this? No. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted October 18, 2013 Share #988 Posted October 18, 2013 It's academic because nobody knows if he just managed the perfect moment of stillness on that picture. We can all do it from time to time, like when people claim to be able hand hold at 1/4 second, but getting lucky once doesn't make it a reliable and repeatable practice. Steve I'm not in the business of "getting lucky". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted October 18, 2013 Share #989 Posted October 18, 2013 Interesting dilemma... I have been using M9 (P Chrome) for almost two years and as far pleasure of taking photographs goes I was never more content in my whole life. I had the opportunity to test drive M typ 240 camera, focusing and few other aspects make it much better camera to handle than M9, it would be nice to have but there are other priorities in life. I am not going into argument over CCD vs CMOS, this was discussed at length at LUF and for me M9 at base ISO up to 640 hardly can be beaten. I also happen to have nice collection of R lenses paired with R film camera and few Leitax rings to use them on Nikon cameras, both film and digital. There is always urge to acquire newer new toy so either M or A7R/A7 seem like a logical next step to indulge full frame photography without a need to modify lenses. As far as new A7R/A7 is concerned it is tempting proposition for anyone wanting to utilise legacy lenses, anyone wanting to use it as stand alone system with native optics the choice of lens is currently rudimentary. If one wanted R lens only solution Sony got it - subject to real life tests validating all the hype. For me M typ 240 is so close to M9 in terms of performance and EVF implementation is dated so most probably successor to typ 240 is likely to end in my photo bag, as for improved focus accuracy external optical magnifier is pretty good solution. I suggest sobering narrative by Nikon pundit Thom Hogan about new Alpha 7, best thing, it seems, is to allow dust to settle. The Sony Fan Boys Are Whooping it Up | Sans Mirror — mirrorless, interchangeable lens cameras | Thom Hogan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted October 18, 2013 Share #990 Posted October 18, 2013 Thanks so much Paul for ruining my night by showing me so convincingly what crap image quality I get from my crap Leica equipment compared with digital MF;) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 18, 2013 Share #991 Posted October 18, 2013 Smaller is a big negative for me - it makes the camera unstable in my hands. And the essential of an M is the rangefinder - the Sony is simply another camera with good output - if you like another type of camera than the M go for it and save some money. Personally I have no interest. I would not have sunk a fortune in the M system over the decades if it were not my preferred type of camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted October 18, 2013 Share #992 Posted October 18, 2013 Thanks so much Paul for ruining my night by showing me so convincingly what crap image quality I get from my crap Leica equipment compared with digital MF;) I know you are joking but there is nothing crap about the image quality obtainable from "Leica equipment". If resolution is the ultimate arbiter of quality then maybe an even better way of photographing a parrot would be to squash it on a high-end flatbed scanner like an old Scitex. Think of how many megapixels you'd get then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 18, 2013 Share #993 Posted October 18, 2013 Here is a small portion of a 100% crop from a hand held 60MP P65+ that is straight out of camera. You will most likely need to click the picture to view it full size. 100% crop Think I just weed myself a little bit... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted October 18, 2013 Share #994 Posted October 18, 2013 For a given amount of camera shake (blur), a greater enlargement of the original will accentuate that blur more than a lesser enlargement. A 35mm sized sensor with 36MP is being enlarged more when viewed at 100% on screen than an equivalent sized sensor with 24MP (also viewed at 100%). Your P65+ when viewed at 100% shows a roughly equivalent enlargement to viewing a 24MP 35mm sensor at 100% (I've since done the maths – the larger sensor is 2.5x the area of the smaller). It's academic when making comparisons of equivalent enlargement. Where is Olaf when you need him? Ugh, you are so right, it's a very boring argument and if Olaf shows up, i'm definitely out. Even if you take an 8MP file and enlarge it to the same sized print you will still see the same blur. It's just that 36MP print of the same size will show more detail within that blur. Camera movement doesn't magically appear with higher megapixels, it's the magnification of an image that makes blur more apparent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted October 18, 2013 Share #995 Posted October 18, 2013 Thanks so much Paul for ruining my night by showing me so convincingly what crap image quality I get from my crap Leica equipment compared with digital MF;) Lol, sorry!!!! Well to be frank, I use the M9 alot more than the Phase one these days because most my work is double page size in a magazine and the M9 really is very good at these sizes. You can not easily tell the difference between the Phase One and the M9 at these sizes when printed with offset printing. I actually think my Leica lenses are sharper than the Fuji Blad ones. It's hard to ultimately tell. There are so many reasons I use the smaller M9, and I think, for many of those reasons, the camera is more able in more situations. So I hope they can develop it and give us a 40MP M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted October 18, 2013 Share #996 Posted October 18, 2013 it's the magnification of an image that makes blur more apparent. Yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted October 18, 2013 Share #997 Posted October 18, 2013 So I hope they can develop it and give us a 40MP M. Maybe the A7R will push Leica to develop a 36-40MP upgrade! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raul Posted October 18, 2013 Share #998 Posted October 18, 2013 I love the rangefinder experience more than I love, say, output quality. Not to say that things like the highly controversial Leica rendering aren't important or Leica lens quality for that matter. They are very important. But the rangefinger experience is at the top of the "Why Leica" list and the M240 is a big improvement in terms of me wanting to grab the camera and just use it. The rest of the attributes just need to keep up Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pieterpronk Posted October 18, 2013 Share #999 Posted October 18, 2013 I think it will be great to see the Leica M be a less popular choice once again. The pricing has gotten silly, but also the whole hype about Leica digital camera's. Sometimes it seemed like everything mirrorless had to be somehow compared to the Leica M. And it seemed like everybody had to have an opinion about Leica, whether it was for rich people only or was indeed the best thing out there. I'd love for the Leica M to be forgotten and to have it return to it's niche market of people who enjoy rangefinders. I mean the situation has gotten silly, with rich people giving each other Leica's as party gifts without them actually knowing that means you have to focus the thing yourself. And unless you practice it's gonna suck for taking pictures of your kids. So hopefully we will once again get away from the Leica as the "hip" camera. It has never been a camera for everybody because for most people it's just impractical. Hopefully prices will get saner again when lenses are in stock everywhere and the second hand market gets flooded by second hand lenses from people that go with the flow of the next hip thing. Basically I feel like the Leica rangefinder has been on the hype train for too long and it's about time it got off the train. And I'm not worried at all that Leica can still be profitable even when it's not the next big thing any more... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted October 18, 2013 Share #1000 Posted October 18, 2013 So change of plans, not going to the camera shop, but now waiting till December to take a gander at the A7r . Yes, I'm not sure why so many seem to be in such a rush to acquire new cameras. The M is pretty much available from stock (here in the UK) and will probably be discounted in the new year. As for the Sony Alpha camera, it will be widely available before long and isn't going anywhere if you don't order it now. Plenty of time to make a considered decision. Personally, I'm happy with what I've already got. It'll be some time before I think about buying another camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.