colonel Posted December 17, 2014 Share #4641 Posted December 17, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) For those of you wondering about the A7II, read Steve huff's review on the Amazon web site I was shocked to see him say that the IQ was even better than the Leica M240 as he has always been a Leica fan and in all of his comparisons I have read to date, has never said that before. I can't compare to teh M240 from my own experience but I can tell you from my experience it is the best I have seen so far, easily besting the Leica T and XV I had and better than the Fuji XT-1 or the Sony A6000 which I also have. The A7 is FF and is of course better then this cameras you quote which use a smaller sensor of a previous sony technology generation That's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison In terms of the M240 vs A7 it's down to the user experience and lenses. Comparing based on spec sheet does not give you the full picture. Both these cameras are so good that the use of the word "better" is rather childish IMHO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 Hi colonel, Take a look here The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jedi996sps Posted December 17, 2014 Share #4642 Posted December 17, 2014 The A7 is FF and is of course better then this cameras you quote which use a smaller sensor of a previous sony technology generation That's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison In terms of the M240 vs A7 it's down to the user experience and lenses. Comparing based on spec sheet does not give you the full picture. Both these cameras are so good that the use of the word "better" is rather childish IMHO I went out yesterday with my A7r and tripod and my M240. The A7r was used on the tripod as that was the money shot in the making and the M240 handheld, just because i like using the M240. I much preferred the M240 shot albeit that technically the A7r one was "better" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted December 17, 2014 Share #4643 Posted December 17, 2014 The A7 is FF and is of course better then this cameras you quote which use a smaller sensor of a previous sony technology generation That's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison In terms of the M240 vs A7 it's down to the user experience and lenses. Comparing based on spec sheet does not give you the full picture. Both these cameras are so good that the use of the word "better" is rather childish IMHO "Really?" The same can be said for many lenses but you don't hesitate to say that Leica lenses are better and pay ridiculous prices for them. I guess we are all a bit childish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted December 17, 2014 Share #4644 Posted December 17, 2014 First, I'm not talking the A7r or A7 but the A7II. I owned the A7r and I own the A7II and I think the images look better on the A7II. I'm not alone in this. Guy on GetDPI and Steve H above seem to have reached the same conclusion. Further, I don't think anyone can accuse Steve of not being a Leica fan which is why his comment surprised me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 17, 2014 Share #4645 Posted December 17, 2014 For those of you wondering about the A7II, read Steve huff's review on the Amazon web site I was shocked to see him say that the IQ was even better than the Leica M240 as he has always been a Leica fan and in all of his comparisons I have read to date, has never said that before. I can't compare to teh M240 from my own experience but I can tell you from my experience it is the best I have seen so far, easily besting the Leica T and XV I had and better than the Fuji XT-1 or the Sony A6000 which I also have. It wouldn't be Steve's first U-turn nor his last... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted December 17, 2014 Share #4646 Posted December 17, 2014 "Really?" The same can be said for many lenses but you don't hesitate to say that Leica lenses are better and pay ridiculous prices for them. I guess we are all a bit childish. Just to repeat What I was saying is those APS-C cameras you compared to the A7 are not in the same league and therefore a useless comparison I have no idea where you point about Leica lenses is coming from. I have Leica, Voigtlander, Zeiss, Sony and Canon lenses. On the whole bucket, Leica lenses are generally more likely to be superior in MTA, micro contrast and draw but that does not mean other lenses are not top notch, such as the Canon 75mm f1.2, the Voigtlander 35mm f1.2 ii, the Sony 55mm FE, etc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimKasson Posted December 17, 2014 Share #4647 Posted December 17, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) It may seem bitingly sharp, but so far the m240 and the 50/ 1.4 has the highest edge sharpness I've seen tested between the M240 and the A7r which is 36MP against the 24MP M240. So, it is not a case of it being unproven. Would you like me to dig up some testing results? Here is a comparison of the 50 'lux on the M240 with the 55 Zony on the a7: Leica 50 ‘lux on the M240, Sony 55 FE on the Sony a7 | The Last Word Both 24 MP cameras. The a7 has an AA filter, and the M240 does not. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 17, 2014 Share #4648 Posted December 17, 2014 Of course the Summilux smears - it is a known failing of sensors not designed for this type lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimKasson Posted December 17, 2014 Share #4649 Posted December 17, 2014 Of course the Summilux smears - it is a known failing of sensors not designed for this type lens. Are you talking about the M240's sensor? Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 17, 2014 Share #4650 Posted December 17, 2014 Did I read you wrong? I'll have another look. Edit:I did. Sorry, too hasty. I thought you had both on the A7. I agree with you all the way then Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted December 18, 2014 Share #4651 Posted December 18, 2014 Thanks Jim. Very informative. My impression, the Leica lens was designed for film (is that correct?) and the M240 sensor stack cannot quite handle the oblique rays optimally, whereas the Sony system (camera and lens) is from ground up designed for them. Is this a correct assessment? TIA. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted December 18, 2014 Share #4652 Posted December 18, 2014 Jim's test has the 50 Summilux on the M240 and the FE 55 on the Sony A7. This test at 3DKraft.de has both the 50 Summilux and the FE 55 on the A7R (along with other lenses): Most adorable 50s - UPDATED: Sigma Art 50/1.4 DG HSM Review - Charts / Sharpness The FE 55 is pretty impressive! ... the "Otus light" as he calls it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimKasson Posted December 18, 2014 Share #4653 Posted December 18, 2014 Thanks Jim. Very informative.My impression, the Leica lens was designed for film (is that correct?) and the M240 sensor stack cannot quite handle the oblique rays optimally, whereas the Sony system (camera and lens) is from ground up designed for them. Is this a correct assessment? TIA. Bingo. The way to think of the sensor stack is as a lens element. Modern digital lenses are designed for a particular sensor stack. Film lenses were designed for a zero-thickness sensor stack. As the lenses get longer, slower, of lower quality, and of more retrofocal design, the stack thickness matters less. Roger, did a nice study on his Lens Rentals blog. LensRentals.com - Sensor Stack Thickness: When Does It Matter? Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted December 18, 2014 Share #4654 Posted December 18, 2014 Bingo. The way to think of the sensor stack is as a lens element. Modern digital lenses are designed for a particular sensor stack. Film lenses were designed for a zero-thickness sensor stack. As the lenses get longer, slower, of lower quality, and of more retrofocal design, the stack thickness matters less. Roger, did a nice study on his Lens Rentals blog. LensRentals.com - Sensor Stack Thickness: When Does It Matter? Jim Thanks again Jim. The previous paper LensRentals.com - The Glass in the Path: Sensor Stacks and Adapted Lenses is also very interesting. From my Leica-M WA lenses, the only one that works equally well on M9 and A7R is the WATE, supposedly due to its more tele-centric design with a long exit pupil distance. The paper you reference lists the exit pupil distance in mm for a few of my Leica M lenses: Leica-M 28mm f/2.8 ASPH Elmarit..........29.6 Leica-M 35mm f/1.4 ASPH Summilux.....40.50 Leica-M 50mm f/2.0 Summicron..............49.93 In my experience worse discoloration and corner smearing are indeed correlated with shorter exit pupil distance when using these lenses on the Sony A7R. These Leica exit pupil distances seem fairly short indeed as compared to a few Nikon lenses: Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8 AF G at 14mm......81 Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8 AF G at 24mm......96.5 Nikon 17-35mm f/2.8 AF-S@17..............98.58 Nikon 17-35mm f/2.8 AF-S@35..............77 Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 AFG at 24mm............116 Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 AFG at 70mm.............92.5 Nikon 50mm f/1.2 AiS...........................103.4 Nikon 58mm f/1.2 AiS Noct.....................83 Nikon 70-200 f/2.8 AF-S VR (both).......146 It would be interesting to know the exit pupil distances for Leica R-lenses, for example for the Leica Vario-Elmarit-R ASPH 28-90/2.8-4.5. Here is a shot with that lens on A7R at 28 mm IIRC. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Inspecting the corners of this image at 100% or 200% resolution my eyes don't detect any discoloration or corner smearing. So I assume the WATE and Vario-R 28-90 will work just fine with the A7 II or the expected A7R II, resp. the A9. Similarly, the Vario-Elmar-R 80-200/4 and APO-Telyt-R 180/3.4 should work just fine. Hopefully in the expected A7R II, resp. the A9 the shutter shock of the A7R for longer lenses has been taken care of so that the Vario-Elmar-R 105-280/4.2 and APO-Telyt-R 280/4 won't need extra care. Although I never owned the A7, I understand that camera didn't suffer the shutter shock of the A7R. I assume the A7 II behaves similarly to the A7 in this regard. Based on my experience with IBIS in the E-M5 and E-M1 I am looking forward to a similar implementation in the A7 II, and hopefully in the A7R II, A9. That feature should greatly contribute to better manual focusing also of Leica lenses as it eliminates the jerkiness of my shaky hands. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Inspecting the corners of this image at 100% or 200% resolution my eyes don't detect any discoloration or corner smearing. So I assume the WATE and Vario-R 28-90 will work just fine with the A7 II or the expected A7R II, resp. the A9. Similarly, the Vario-Elmar-R 80-200/4 and APO-Telyt-R 180/3.4 should work just fine. Hopefully in the expected A7R II, resp. the A9 the shutter shock of the A7R for longer lenses has been taken care of so that the Vario-Elmar-R 105-280/4.2 and APO-Telyt-R 280/4 won't need extra care. Although I never owned the A7, I understand that camera didn't suffer the shutter shock of the A7R. I assume the A7 II behaves similarly to the A7 in this regard. Based on my experience with IBIS in the E-M5 and E-M1 I am looking forward to a similar implementation in the A7 II, and hopefully in the A7R II, A9. That feature should greatly contribute to better manual focusing also of Leica lenses as it eliminates the jerkiness of my shaky hands. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/214267-the-sony-a7-thread-merged/?do=findComment&comment=2730407'>More sharing options...
gyoung Posted December 18, 2014 Share #4655 Posted December 18, 2014 Ii assume all the comments above relate to the aspheric 50 Summilux, has anyone any experience of the last pre aspheric version? I have seen comments that the 50 Summicron does well on the A7, is the exit pupil distance longer for that I wonder. Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp995 Posted December 18, 2014 Share #4656 Posted December 18, 2014 Of course the Summilux smears - it is a known failing of sensors not designed for this type lens. Or a known failing of lenses not designed for these sensors Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted December 18, 2014 Share #4657 Posted December 18, 2014 I have seen comments that the 50 Summicron does well on the A7, is the exit pupil distance longer for that I wonder. Gerry Gerry, The latest version of pre-ASPH 50 Summicron works well on A7R too. https://www.dropbox.com/s/o5lniggmuucr7n0/_DSC2055.JPG?dl=0 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted December 18, 2014 Share #4658 Posted December 18, 2014 Of course the Summilux smears - it is a known failing of sensors not designed for this type lens. Thanks Jaap for this honest assessment of the 50 Summilux on the M240! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturephoto1 Posted December 18, 2014 Share #4659 Posted December 18, 2014 Here is a link on FM comparing reflections noted on the sensor of the new A7II versus the A7 a7ii vs a7 - Rangefinder Lens Performance - FM Forums Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted December 18, 2014 Share #4660 Posted December 18, 2014 Here is a link on FM comparing reflections noted on the sensor of the new A7II versus the A7 a7ii vs a7 - Rangefinder Lens Performance - FM Forums Rich Rich, thanks for the encouraging news. Flare behavior of the A7 II seems to have been improved. I never noticed these kinds of flares on my A7R. Maybe I should try to look for them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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