The Sony A7 thread [Merged]

[jaapv]

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Right! That's okay then - if it didn't happen on this forum, it can't be true.

 

You added this bit, Jaap:

 

 

 

Nice try - a problem with sensor supplies becomes "completely unavailable", which can't be true, so the whole e "rumour" is nonsense and restricted to Australia.

 

Then again, it could be that Leica has a problem with sensor supplies, and this does not necessarily augur well for those relying on a 10 year post discontinuance guarantee of spares ... But it is just a rumour from "that blog", so it's okay.

:confused:The rumour on this forum WAS that they were completely unavailable and forever which is uncorroborated nonsense. The blog Ozkar quoted implies that they are being replaced unacceptably slowly, with which I happen to agree. I am getting pretty fed up with this malicious twisting of my words according to silly prejudices.

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[AlanG]

You are pulling my posts completely out of context and reacting to a side argument that was not even started by me. Read #2765 onwards. I would have expected better from you.

 

I am sorry if I offended you but I don't think I even understand the concern. I believe you implied twice that there was some significance to the percentage of 7 year old Sonys and M8s in use. (Which we have no data on.) Unless I am wrong about that, what is it?

 

I'll try to read back and see where I went astray. Perhaps I missed what you were getting at in the first place.

 

I think some people, perhaps new to higher end photography, shopping for a camera, would assume that a $10,000+ German camera and lens would be better made, more reliable, and better supported than a $2000 Sony one. Is there any hard proof of this that a sales person can point to when selling Leica? I learned from my Beaulieu experience that price and quality were not always related.

[MarkP]

This issue of sensor supply obviously has nothing to do with Camera Clinic as they are dependent on Solms for components.

[IkarusJohn]

:confused:The rumour on this forum WAS that they were completely unavailable and forever which is uncorroborated nonsense. The blog Ozkar quoted implies that they are being replaced unacceptably slowly, with which I happen to agree. I am getting pretty fed up with this malicious twisting of my words according to silly prejudices.

 

So we've gone from splitting hairs, dismissing reasonable concerns because sensors are not "completely unavailable", just not available right at the moment in Australia, to personal attack?

 

There's no twisting of words here Jaap - Leica has a problem, and that gives rise to reasonable concerns over their ability to meet their commitment of support for 10 years after the M-E and presumably Monochrom cease production. They don't seem to be able to support the cameras now ...

[jaapv]

No, you guys are diverting the argument by twisting my words into some silly defense of Leica and I find that unacceptable

 

This is the post that started this off:

I find this thread quite illuminating. It shows us how much the world has changed. In the film days we had a level playing field regarding the "sensor"and camera discussions tended to centre around camera type, ergonomics, build quality etc. Nowadays people tend to forget all these aspects and tend to post in the order of : "Yes, the Leica is superbly built, perfect rangefinder and shutter - but with the Sony I can get equal image quality at one third of the price" Yes. With a Bessa you could get equal image quality at the third of the price of an M6 - It was always regarded as a non-argument.

[MarkP]

I go back to what I said before using Mercedes Benz as an example (or any major manufacturer for that matter). Can you imagine the outcry if there was a delay in component supply which rendered something such as a car or computer or domestic appliance or (insert product of your choice) useless for six months? The lawyers would be called in.....

 

...John?...are you there?......John?.....

[IkarusJohn]

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You've lost me. Referring to a Bessa was to what end?

 

You can't compare a film camera quality to digital because the sensor is central. That's the point.

 

I'd still like an explanation to your use of "malicious" and "silly prejudice". Surely criticism of Leica is allowed without a moderator resorting to personal insult.

[jaapv]

Well, you introduced the lifespan of film cameras vs digital ones, so I replied :

You misinterpret my argument. Nowadays the differences in quality between the sensors of all high-end cameras and most midrange ones are so small to make any discussion academic and any difference in the final print irrelevant, so we are in the same situation that we were when we all used film.

That means we should indeed consider other aspects of the cameras, and if you will, including the relative lifespans. What percentage of Sonys from 2006 are still in operation and what percentage of M8s?

 

Which started of silly discussion about the reparability of the respective cameras Before the whole thing starts off again : the discussion is silly in the context ; in another context it is quite relevant.

 

And then you and some others tried to make out that I was somehow on the barricades for Leica. Which not. I have noticed a pronounced tendency by a number of members to misinterpret me this way and it is not acceptable.

And nobody is against criticism of Leica. Being upset at being deliberately misquoted and twisted around has nothing to do with being a moderator.

[IkarusJohn]

Why is a discussion about the reparability of Leica silly?

[almoore]

you and some others tried to make out that I was somehow on the barricades for Leica. Which not. I have noticed a pronounced tendency by a number of members to misinterpret me this way and it is not acceptable

 

If I found that a number of people were consistently misreading my words I might begin brooding on my delivery rather than their motivations.

[jaapv]

You've lost me. Referring to a Bessa was to what end?

I’ll explain again. Now that sensors are very close in quality, we are reverting to these situation that cameras cannot be differentiated by the sensor as much as they used to be. So the qualities that were relevant in the film days are returning as a differentiating factor. For instance, Leica’s were preferred over Bessas despite the same image quality and despite the far lower price.

[jaapv]

Why is a discussion about the reparability of Leica silly?

In the context of my original post In another context it is completely non-silly As I said in the post you are referring to.

I am just fed up by some people mistakenly thinking by part-reading and misinterpreting that I am somehow defending Leica ad absurdam. I won’t give a peep as soon as the bashing based on suppositions stops. But I will continue explaining backgrounds.

[IkarusJohn]

Sorry, let me put this another way - I don't want to come across as cross-examining you, and every time I look at a post of yours it changes. I should be more patient, and let you finish before responding.

 

I think I have made my position on Leica's price and support reasonably clear. It has nothing to do with what you post - I have been banging that drum for a while. I love my Leicas, and I am reasonably forgiving of teething problems with quality control, and despite being flawed, I love my M9.

 

But, I do not accept Leica's assurances of support for 10 years after the CCD sensor ceases to be offered in a Leica camera. The reasons are there for all to see, including the current unavailability of sensors (anywhere, apparently), the outstanding resolution of the M9 firmware problem etc etc. The more difficult point, apparently, is that we are expected to accept that where the camera for life strap line used by Leica might have applied to film cameras, it doesn't apply to digital. I object to Leica getting off the hook so easily.

 

More subtly, I see the M(240) as a bit of a lost soul, particularly if we accept the electronics have a short shelf life argument. This is where the Sony shows the way for Leica. Many of us have been pushing for a non-CRF Leica M (EVIL, if you prefer) for a while, as it will be cheaper to produce (without the RF), and will hopefully have better electronics if it is a pure electronic camera. It doesn't need to compete with Sony, as there are so many of us with Leica lenses, we'd ditch the Sony in a heartbeat.

 

Now, in response, your contributions to the topic have been to say:

• it's an Australian problem (not true)
  
• sensors are not completely unavailable forever, it's just a temporary problem
  
• Leica has no future competing with Sony
  
• and to then resort to personal attack
  

 

The core issue here is that I (and a number of others here) don't trust Leica to stand by our cameras for anything like the period its premium price and quality materials would suggest. I take it you agree with that position?

 

The reason for the scorn and mockery of your contributions in this discussion to date is that by splitting hairs and nitpicking, you come across like a Leica fanboy. I'm sorry if this is not the case, but it's certainly the way you appear.

 

Cheers

John

[almoore]

Leica’s were preferred over Bessas despite the same image quality and despite the far lower price.

 

A much more realistic parallel between the M240 and the A7 in the film age would be M6 and Contax G2. Two very capable and beautifully built compact sized cameras, with a very different design ethos and with the autofocus option being the more modestly priced of the two.

[jaapv]

I go back to what I said before using Mercedes Benz as an example (or any major manufacturer for that matter). Can you imagine the outcry if there was a delay in component supply which rendered something such as a car or computer or domestic appliance or (insert product of your choice) useless for six months? The lawyers would be called in.....

 

...John?...are you there?......John?.....

Yes I agree. I never said otherwise.

A much more realistic parallel between the M240 and the A7 in the film age would be M6 and Contax G2. Two very capable and beautifully built compact sized cameras, with a very different design ethos and with the autofocus option being the more modestly priced of the two.

 

And didn’t make it in the end. A perfect example.

[ModernMan]

Until we have this camera in hand there is no way to tell to outcome.

 

That does truly capture the essence of current circumstances.

[AlanG]

I’ll explain again. Now that sensors are very close in quality, we are reverting to these situation that cameras cannot be differentiated by the sensor as much as they used to be. So the qualities that were relevant in the film days are returning as a differentiating factor. For instance, Leica’s were preferred over Bessas despite the same image quality and despite the far lower price.

 

OK there were many reasons to prefer a Leica to a Bessa. There were many reasons to prefer a Nikon F to a Leica.

 

Assuming both can produce nice photos, there are reasons to prefer a Sony A7r to a Leica M. And there are also reasons to prefer an M to an A7r. But speculation about better construction, durability, longevity, and repair-ability are just that... speculation. Whereas recent history does not seem to be on Leica's side for those matters.

 

I can't speak for Sony as I've never had a Sony camera repaired, but my 4 fairly recent Canon CPS repairs never took longer than a week - door to door.

[IkarusJohn]

Just to illustrate my point above, I have highlighted the interesting bit of this post:

 

Well-taken argument, Peter. So Sony has made a middle of the road camera for middle of the road customers I think you have a point there.

Personally I always was firmly in the RF camp using an SLR only when needed. With the extension of usabilty of the M by the EVF Leica has catered for that need. Probably the reason why I regard all this excitement in a somewhat bemused manner.

Come to think of it, the Leica M eats into the market for the A7R that way, not the other way around, as do the small and handy DSLRs that are appearing on the market. Interesting times.

 

No, not a Leica fanboy at all, no!

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[algrove]

Maybe so but I just got my M9P back last week with some shutter parts repaired and a new vulcanite, under warranty. I wonder about this claim as there was no delay noted from Leica to repair this fine camera.

[jaques]

just to add my own knowledge of the Australia/Leica repair/M9/M240 situation: I sold my m9 to an Australian user. After 6 months his sensor 'delaminated' or similar- there were white spots under the cover glass. Leica determined it was a sensor failure but the buyer had to wait around 6 months for a repair (done for free out of warranty). My own brand new M240 was faulty out of the box- had to be sent back- it took over one month to get from my dealer- to Solms- and still hasn't been returned to me two months later.

 

Also apparently Solms could not replicate the issue I had with the camera- apparently it 'fixed itself' - so as far as I know it is going to be returned exactly as it was. I asked them to do more tests as I am really not very happy with the idea of a camera that fixes itself. If the issue re-occurs- I am not sure what I will do- but I know I will be extremely angry. Given that I had to return my new M240 after only 20 days I am pretty concerned about Leica digital camera reliability these days to say the least.