MarkP Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1801 Posted October 31, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Since most of you already have the creme de la creme (seriously, you really need another camera??!!) why not wait a year for the A8? I'm sure it will be much much better. Surprised nobody has mentioned the upcoming Nikon announcement. If Nikon actually put out an FM or F3 sized/styled body (with the D4 sensor at that), then I'm all over it. I think the size thing is becoming over rated. I recently bought a Ricoh GR, ya know, to take with me wherever. Used it like twice and now boxed up ready to sell. Not going down that road again. Much prefer lugging along a 'real' camera (i.e. my M9 or MM with a 28 'cron). Not that an M is exactly 'lugging.' I actually find that having classic controls (i.e. manual focus, top shutter speed dial, etc) actually allows me to shoot better and easier than having to remember which goddamn spin wheel controls what. Just the way I think. Okay, my rant. Nice thing is I know patience pays off as there's always something new down the road and itchy wallets who need the next best and will sell off their last 'best ever' camera for a discount. The Nikon is rumoured to have a 16MP sensor. If it had a >35MP sensor that would be a different issue for many people (but I can't see any of these other companies developing sensors/firmware for third party rangefinder lenses). It will be interesting to see whether Leica will follow suit with an EVF (non-RF) FF sensor camera. Reading this thread there is clearly a demand for this. I very much agree with you that consistent ergonomics and control layout in my cameras is very important. For over 35 years my main cameras (whether Nikon Nikkormat/FM/FE2/F3 or more recently Haselblad X-Pan or Leica have had focus and aperture rings and shutter-speed dials in the same place. Hasn't anyone noticed that for very good reasons different cars have consistent placement of major controls! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Hi MarkP, Take a look here The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
algrove Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1802 Posted October 31, 2013 Maybe a silly question.. but WHY is that lens SO big ? Wondered the same thing. It's way bigger than my 28-90 R lens! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1803 Posted October 31, 2013 Do not rush to cancel your 7R orders because the 7 has less color shift. In SH samples, there is some serious smearing in the corners of the ZM 21 and 35. We need to wait and see what the 7R does in the corners. The color shift is fixable, the smearing isn't. As I mentioned before, if you want to use M lenses, get an M240 or M-E. The sensor toppings have been designed specifically for them. The Sony 7 has its own native lenses, and a new line of MF Zeiss lenses that will come at the end of 2014. These will be perfectly matched for the sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david perry Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1804 Posted October 31, 2013 90 odd pages of discussion and we are no further forward on the 'to Sony or not to Sony' conundrum, nor can we be, when everything is so subjective (anyone recall the pages of text about M9 vs M240 for example). So to some highly subjective statements: Consider Microsoft vs Apple: you are either a Windows user or a Mac zealot. One system relies on software bolted onto generic hardware, with all the compromises which that entails, the other sees software and hardware designed for each other in a harmoniously stylish package. One does the job, the other has soul. One gets in the way, the other becomes the way. I delight in the clear, bright optical viewfinder and the elegant simplicity of the rangefinder patch and framelines of the M which somehow connect me seamlessly to the world I am a part of in a way that the EVF - any EVF - never has or does. Sure, the new Sony's do the job photographically, especially if you are willing to put a dustbin sized, adapter mounted Otus lens on the front of the A7r. Classic Microsoft approach that. Otherwise you peek into Lightroom on the iMac and look through all of those images which are sharp corner to corner and edge to edge, with lovely bokeh and vibrant colour, beautifully resolved by the sensor and displaying that indefinable lens and light gifted soul, and conclude that you already have in your hands a peerless classic which is exactly in tune with your own photographic soul. A highly subjective view: of course, that is the whole point. There is no right or wrong here, no independent, objective answer; there are just honestly held and expressed opinions. Having found my photographic soul mate in the Leica M240 I am delightedly content. Others will find such Nirvana in an A7 / A7r body, or an iPhone. What matters surely is that we find such soul satisfying photography, recognise it and appreciate how fortunate we are? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdriceman Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1805 Posted October 31, 2013 Somewhat off topic perhaps, but maybe not... I recently used my Nex 6 indoors with a flash and discovered EVF shooting in this situation can be problematic (I had not done this before as I either use my M or my DSLR in such situations). At any rate, shooting in Manual, ISO 100, 1/125s and aperture at f5.6 and a flash the EVF is essentially blacked out making it almost impossible to compose and confirm focus. I resolved this by switching to manual focus and opening up aperture so I could compose and focus, then stop down to take the shot. Still, in this situation, you have to jump thru hoops to compose and focus then fly in the dark to actually take the picture. Is there a more convenient way or do you have to live with this on an EVF only camera? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1806 Posted October 31, 2013 Maybe a silly question.. but WHY is that lens SO big ? It's much easier and less expensive to design and build a high-performance lens if not constrained by size. When size is a constraint, as it is when one does not wish to obstruct the rangefinder, high optical performance comes at a very high cost in the form of ashperical surfaces, costly materials and manufacturing techniques, and tight tolerances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1807 Posted October 31, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Consider Microsoft vs Apple: you are either a Windows user or a Mac zealot. One system relies on software bolted onto generic hardware' date=' with all the compromises which that entails, the other sees software and hardware designed for each other in a harmoniously stylish package. One does the job, the other has soul. One gets in the way, the other becomes the way. [/quote'] The comparison between Macs and Leicas seem odd to me. Apple tries to be at the forefront of design and technology and doesn't mind discarding old ways and compatibility whenever it wants. Whereas Leica sticks with the same design and approach and struggles to keep up with technology. Is there a new AF M system that I missed? Their 6 bit lens coding solution is about as bolted on as it gets to avoid making a new electronic harmonious interface. Macs and PCs use the same processors, graphics cards LCD panels, storage, and memory. There are plenty of harmoniously stylish Windows machines. The Microsoft Surface comes from a company that designs the hardware and software. And there are lots of hardware and software items that are not made by Apple that people add to their Macs. Macs have limited selection choices... for instance no powerful desktop upgrade in some time (yes one is coming in December) and no 17" laptop. Windows has a very harmonious touch interface and Macs do not. There are Windows machines that you can draw on as with a Wacom Cintiq. So it is not as clear cut as you present it. What compromises are you referring to and what things get in the way of what? With Macs you are compromising your choices as only one company makes a few models and if it doesn't have the features you need, you may be out of luck. Try adding 4 SLI or Crossfire graphics cards to a Mac. Sony has a new line of relatively small high performing lenses designed for the A7. You don't have to buy an Otus to get good photos from the camera. Zeiss makes a number of approx. 50mm lenses that will work on the A7. The Otus is just an additional choice. Perhaps they'll have one to fit the Leica now that it has an EVF. I know, that is a bolted on solution that is less than harmonious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1808 Posted October 31, 2013 It is like 2 coca-cola cans attached end to end, then bolted onto an adapter which is bolted to a petite camera body. Maybe it looks like crap, but it can sure produce what looks like superb images. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1809 Posted October 31, 2013 who wants a 17 inch laptop? I keep checking on this thread every few days to see what the latest conclusions are... have the a7 on order ... can always cancel if any really bad news emerges- but I am thinking the camera will overall be a winner- with some limitations- just like any camera. I bet most M lenses work pretty well too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1810 Posted October 31, 2013 Consider Microsoft vs Apple: you are either a Windows user or a Mac zealot. One system relies on software bolted onto generic hardware, with all the compromises which that entails, the other sees software and hardware designed for each other in a harmoniously stylish package. One does the job, the other has soul. One gets in the way, the other becomes the way. What is the point of bringing a Mac vs. Windows debate into this? It really has no application. I enjoy my Macs for many reasons, but there is no "soul" in either system. Likewise, cameras don't have "soul". That is some sort of mystic anthropomorphism that does more to confuse than to clarify. The A7 will "do the job" photographically with almost any lens and certainly without the huge Otus lens. The Otus lens was designed mainly for DSLRs like the D800. The wonder of the A7 is that it can be used with almost any lens, while being the smallest interchangeable lens full-frame body with a viewfinder. That is just brilliant. Call it a "Microsoft approach" or whatever, but it's still brilliant. The M240 may be a peerless classic, but it's a $7,000 peerless classic, well beyond the budget of most photographers. The A7 is a very different type of camera in a very different price category. It's not fair to say "one does the job, the other has soul" in reference to these cameras. Each will have its advantages and its own charm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1811 Posted October 31, 2013 Nothing says soul like an 8x10 Deardorf. If it has soul but cannot do the job, you buy an A7 I guess. I don't consider myself to be a computer or camera zealot. The reality is that the A7 is going to be a great camera for many people whether it works well with lots of M lenses or not. It also puts technological and price pressure onto Canon and Nikon to keep up. If Leica sees its sales affected, they will have to change too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1812 Posted October 31, 2013 It's much easier and less expensive to design and build a high-performance lens if not constrained by size. When size is a constraint, as it is when one does not wish to obstruct the rangefinder, high optical performance comes at a very high cost in the form of ashperical surfaces, costly materials and manufacturing techniques, and tight tolerances. Yes but I suspect the Otus is also using expensive methods and materials and tight tolerances, just without the size constraint. For the price of an M, EVF and Apo Summicron, you could buy an A7, A7r, Otus, 55 1.8, 35 2.8, 24-70 f4, 70-200 f4 and have some cash left over for an M3 and a bunch of film for real soul. I for one could not do my job as well without the 17mm TSE and 24mm TSE lenses. So I think it is very nice that the A7 will work with them and some of you might consider it to have access to these great lenses. And there are plenty of other wide angle lenses that will work on the A7 if your favorite M lens won't. It is hard for me to see how Leica won't be affected by the versatility and pricing of the A7 system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptZoom Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1813 Posted October 31, 2013 Maybe a silly question.. but WHY is that lens SO big ? I dunno the technical specifics, other than Zeiss' marketing claiming they threw the new constraints (chiefly cost and size) out the window when designing this lens. I'm sure the more knowledgable will chime in soon. I've little doubt that the lens will be perform superbly; if Zeiss continues to build this line of product, I'll consider adding it especially if they add a longer lens and a macro- two things that the M can't do well and two things that are useful for product photography. So far, I've been using the M9 and a 90mm and it's not without its challenges. But unlike a dSLR + Otus, the M9 setup isn't limited to just studio use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturephoto1 Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1814 Posted October 31, 2013 Just reported on Sony Alpha Rumors regarding the DxOmark rating of the A7r Sensor: A7r sensor gets DxOmarked (Same result as D800-D800E). And more new reviews. | sonyalpharumors Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1815 Posted October 31, 2013 I prefer to think of my Leica in regards to my stereo brand (Naim) vs my computer brand (Mac). Naim's are black boxes that work and sound great, with a minimum of frills. Priced medium to low one can get away with $2K and have a great hi-fi or go x10 that and not even be able to buy a single unit. Now Naim used to be considered somewhat stuck in the past due to their simplicity, but in the past few years they've embraced streaming and digital technology and have become one of the leaders in the hi-fi world. I recently got a Unitiqute which is an all in one system that is not much bigger than a box set of dvd's. It is truly incredible, and besides my M9 and my Imacon scanner the best gear purchase I have ever made. Wish I could say the same about Macs, but they don't inspire me, they just get the job done. The Naim makes me want to listen to music again, and the M's make me want to take photos. Of course Naim's have their own peculiarities much like Leica's which can be equally fun and frustrating. But like Leica's, they just work, and by many (myself included) are considered a lifetime purchase. How many people really "need" 36mp? Or is this the magic number that makes one 's photography better? I've actually always applauded Nikon for not playing the numbers game - and then of course trumping all with the unexpectedly with the D800 (for the record I'm stuck at 24mp and 18mp with the D600 and M9 - damn my photographs suck. . Better get a Sony!). I do understand the appeal of using different brand lenses on the Sony, but of course one is still stuck with the peculiarities of those lenses (such as .7 meter close focus on the M's, smearing, etc etc) and it all just seems so kludgy with adaptors etc. Great for a hobby I s'pose. Any way, I'm really just playing devil's advocate here, because it's fun. I'm sure the A7 will be a great camera for many, though I really just see it as G.A.S for most already owning great useable cameras. I also think it's one of the butt ugliest of the recent crop of cameras - I would never have thought of the Canon F1 as a basis for stylish design. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1816 Posted October 31, 2013 Just reported on Sony Alpha Rumors regarding the DxOmark rating of the A7r Sensor: A7r sensor gets DxOmarked (Same result as D800-D800E). And more new reviews. | sonyalpharumors Rich Hi Rich, Many thanks for the info. That's really good news, as expected though IMHO. I am glad my D800E soon will be joined by the A7R. Then I finally have an FF camera for my unmodified R lenses. The resolution of 36 MP is certainly welcome in such a small camera. Here are two shots with the D800E and older Leitz Telyts. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2533906-post1066.html I am looking forward how the A7R will do with my APO 280/4 or Vario-Elmar-R 105-280/4.2? The way these lenses draw is quite different though. Another interesting lens I will try is the Vario-Elmarit-R ASPH 28-90/2.8-4.5. For extra reach I will continue to use my NEX-7 with 24 MP. The D800E would need to have about 57 MP to match its resolution. Thanks again for the info. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1817 Posted October 31, 2013 Fasten your seat belts, we are now leaving the discussion of trying to determine how well this camera might work for Leica shooters and are getting philosophical? Have we already, once again, reached the point where expectation hits the wall of realization and the fog of rationalization rolls in? It always comes to this with everything because... this is just another imperfect technological "thing" marketed expertly to part us from our hard earned money. When am I ever going to learn? Soul probably resides in me simply using what I already have. For me, I mean really... I've got an M and half dozen really nice lenses. @Charles - I Always liked the sound of that Naim stuff that that old guy sold up on Roosevelt Avenue at Hawthorne Audio. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
helged Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1818 Posted October 31, 2013 Although appealing, the all-singing, all-dancing camera system has yet to be born. The combination of (relatively) small size and (relatively) light weight M-bodies, combined with small, light weight and high quality M-optics do wonders for me. The MM and M240 are excellent as long as you can live with their quirks and limitations. I certainly can in the same way as I love shooting with pinhole cameras. The technology will continue to improve. I rather wait for the next incarnation of an M than switching to another brand. Yes, Leica is expensive and a Sony-body could be an option if M-optics could be used, or a Sony-system could be an alternative if the optics were comparable to the M-line. In the mean time, I continue to enjoy life with the M-system (plus a few R-lenses mounted on M240). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturephoto1 Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1819 Posted October 31, 2013 The jury is out on this and we are still waiting for more results, but we may have our first 21mm RF M mount lens that may work well with the Sony A7 and A7r (it is not a Leica): A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses - FM Forums Keep reading some of the comments. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david perry Posted October 31, 2013 Share #1820 Posted October 31, 2013 Sorry for deliberately lobbing juicily subjective statements into the pond just to see which fish took the bait, that was a bit of philosophical naughtiness, but one that, as expected, made my point beautifully. QED. For truth I look to poetry, not marketing. (ooops, there I go again....) There is just something about All Hallows Eve that is so enticing; trick or treat, Sony or Leica....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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