janki Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1241 Posted October 20, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) We may like it or not, - the same happens in the world of photography. Maybe Leica should enter into a joint venture with a partner in the electronics industry. What about Sony? Increasingly smaller, lighter and more powerful, Without comparison otherwise: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/214267-the-sony-a7-thread-merged/?do=findComment&comment=2446588'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 20, 2013 Posted October 20, 2013 Hi janki, Take a look here The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
NJH Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1242 Posted October 20, 2013 Of course they didn't, you're absolutely right. It's just some people here seem to hope for the slightly different sensor design of the A7r to help with the severe problems the A7 is showing with third-party-lenses. And I doubt it for the reason you state: Sony does not care for lenses of other manufacturers. Mike Its worse than that, they clearly don't care about compact wide angles for their own system either based on how catastrophically bad the results were with that selection of lenses. Little point in making the worlds smallest/lightest FF interchangeable lens camera if you have to use honking great FF DSLR sized lenses on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1243 Posted October 20, 2013 HI JohnI hear what you say about Leica (although I don't agree with it all). This remark is sad though. It seems to me that if Leica had released the M(240) without EVF at all, and with the right colour profiles . . then lots of people like you would have been more than happy. Much improved shutter (quieter, smoother, less lag). Much improved rangefinder Better buffer Weather-sealed Better WA lens profiles Basically, it answered all the issues raised by the M9, and I'm afraid the CCD/CMOS argument really is a chimera - exacerbated by the fact that the colour profiles in the first firmware version were not right. The 'mini-m' marketing was a catastrophe, the X-vario being the victim - if it's the kind of thing you want it takes very good pictures, but to call it a 'mini-m' was so outrageous that it's resonances are unlikely to stop. But I really do think that if you're expecting Sony to provide a decent solution for mid to wide angled M lenses (whether from Leica or anyone else), then you're living in a fool's paradise. Sony are in the business of selling Zeiss lenses - not in making it easy for you to use your Leica lenses. There seems to be a kind of consensus around here that the gapless/angled microlenses are there for the likes of us M users - I'm sure that they're there so that Sony can produce proper profiles for their own lenses . . . of course I could be wrong - it's possible that Sony will spend huge amounts of money on firmware so that other people will sell lenses instead of them . . . possible Having said all this - I have an A7r on pre-order - but I'm not expecting to use it with Leica lenses - especially having seen the horrid mess the 28 'cron creates on the A7. all the best Thanks Jono, I accept what you say, and I suspect you're right. I'm just venting, I guess. I'm happy with my M9, and have never been looking to replace it. I still blame you for my Monochrom :-). My favorite camera still! What I have been looking for since embarking on my Leica journey is a small hi-tech additional body which takes Leica glass. The NEX-5n was close, but not quite there. The RX1 is hugely appealing (Tim Ashley is very complimentary), but it has a fixed lens. Sony designing for Leica glass? Of course, you're probably right, but ... - the marketing information is littered with references to using other lenses (wishful thinking on my part and hubris from Sony? Maybe) - Sony makes cameras, not lenses. They have their own line of Zeiss lenses, but I expect them to fall way short of the Zeiss ZM lenses and Leica's own. The NEX lens I had was plasticky and pretty ordinary. - the A7r sensor is made for wides, specifically to deal with the problems which plague all super wides. From what I've read, it has the shallower buckets like the CMOSIS sensor in the M(240) with offset micros lenses (like the M9) and the addition of gapless cell sites. Now, maybe it won't play well with Leica wides, but I'm hopeful that if it's designed for ZM lenses, it might work with modern retro focus Leica wides as claimed Now, I'm realistic that Leica has been doing this for a long time etc, and lens profiles will (may) be needed. At least, that's what people say. But actually, Leica has only been doing digital since the M8 (2005?) and full frame since 2009. Sony has way more direct experience with sensors than Leica and makes the best sensors in the business. It's not the lenses which are the issue, but the way the sensor deals with lenses that have been around for a long time. Lenses that Zeiss and others have been making for as long as Leica. Fool's paradise? Maybe. I prefer optimistic. I haven't seen an A7r image taken with a Leica wide (28 Summicron, please in raw). Until then, I'll cut Sony some slack, and I'll give them the chance to surprise me. I used to do the same for Leica until I accepted that "a camera for life" was just a cynical opportunity to charge more for everything while deserting loyal customers when the economics suited. Cheers John holding off disappointment for the moment. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1244 Posted October 20, 2013 Its worse than that, they clearly don't care about compact wide angles for their own system either based on how catastrophically bad the results were with that selection of lenses. Little point in making the worlds smallest/lightest FF interchangeable lens camera if you have to use honking great FF DSLR sized lenses on it. Is the same as Leica M with R tele lenses. No? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1245 Posted October 20, 2013 John, the Zeiss 55/1.8 is actually well in Leica territory, and even beyond. For just 1000$, you get 50 AA performance. The Zeiss 35/2.8 is no slouch either, but it was primarily designed for size. http://www.sony.jp/ichigan/products/SEL55F18Z/feature_1.html#L1_80 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1246 Posted October 20, 2013 I did, thanks for providing the link. Still, from what I see in Ron's pictures the corner smearing seems to be way too severe to just be caused by thick filter plates over the sensor. I would be surprised a simple lack of lowpass filter would heal the corner weakness completely. But of course it's just deduction from my side. The truth will be in the pictures we hopefully will see soon. As for the gapless microlenses I am sure it helps for increasing light yield, but as for helping with incident angles I am not so sure. Mike Thanks, I agree. We need to see actual images. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1247 Posted October 20, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) John, the Zeiss 55/1.8 is actually well in Leica territory, and even beyond. For just 1000$, you get 50 AA performance... Really? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1248 Posted October 20, 2013 John, the Zeiss 55/1.8 is actually well in Leica territory, and even beyond. For just 1000$, you get 50 AA performance. The Zeiss 35/2.8 is no slouch either, but it was primarily designed for size. http://www.sony.jp/ichigan/products/SEL55F18Z/feature_1.html#L1_80 Thanks Edward - you may be right, but I'm not interested in yet another lens system. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1249 Posted October 20, 2013 Really? Yes, really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1250 Posted October 20, 2013 The A7R + Zeiss 55/1.8 may be the ticket as a P&S. I mean treated as a fixed lens camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1251 Posted October 20, 2013 As a longtime photographer and a guy who shoots most of his interior and exterior architectural images at around f8, to get the most out of my lenses and the dof I need, I have been trying to remember any time I needed to get a sharp edge to edge wide angle image at f1.4. With the shallow depth of field, what kind of subject would that be? A flat wall? As for Sony's 55 1.8, when you consider that the new cameras can track focus on an individual eyeball, if this plays out it will allow for a good number of keepers compared to using magnified live view, focus peaking, standard DSLR manual or AF, or a rangefinder. So that one feature may be more significant in wide open portrait use than any small differences between lens performance. Especially if it allows you to work with a more animated subject. And stopping a lens down seems to be quite an equalizer. So not to put down those who look to the A7R as a platform for Leica or other 3rd party lenses, but there will be advantages to using Sony's AF glass on it. (Also MF lenses such as Canon's 17 and 24 TSE's that have no match in other brands) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1252 Posted October 20, 2013 Yes, really. Any link about such a revelation? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1253 Posted October 20, 2013 Feel the same way Alan. Corner sharpness wide open has always confused me as an measurement. Objectively you can compare two lenses like that, but in practice? Your second paragraph sounds very pro-technology. You'll be stoned as a witch, you realise that right? ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglou Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1254 Posted October 20, 2013 If this graph is true... Sony Global - Digital Imaging - α Lenses - Sonnar T* FE 55mm F1.8 ZA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1255 Posted October 20, 2013 Your second paragraph sounds very pro-technology. You'll be stoned as a witch, you realise that right? ;-) Well it's all about getting the photo isn't it? Improved focusing technology is a key to getting the most out of hi res with fast lenses used quickly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1256 Posted October 20, 2013 Well it's all about getting the photo isn't it? You'd think so, wouldn't you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1257 Posted October 20, 2013 I said this very early on but I'll say it again, Sony has built a FF high MP count interchangeable lens mirrorless camera system but not as a Leica substitute, nor as a way to allow owners of Leica lenses to use their existing lenses. Sony is not trying to appeal to a relatively small group of Leica users. They are looking at a much broader audience who would either be going to Fuji, Ricoh, Olympus, etc., and/or coming from Nikon or Canon. But the fact that there is such a huge interest by Leica users does say something. It's clear that the M240 is not the perfect answer to a digital M. Otherwise a thread of this size would have never happened in the first place. Hopefully Leica is listening. Personally, I'm ordering the A7r with the 35 and 55 (I get a substantial discount from anything made by Sony and so it's less of a risk monetarily for me.) And if I can use some of my existing Leica M lenses, then that's just an added bonus. But the Zeiss branded native lenses are certainly going to be quite fine. It will not mean the images will be crap because I'm not using a 5k USD 35mm Summilux FLE (thankfully my audience seems to be a lot more interested in the content and context of the images themselves and not the nuances of any particular lens ) And just as a reminder, Sony is not an optical company. Leica has already had their lens designs in the marketplace for decades (the R+D costs have been pretty much recovered.) For Sony to risk spending big money right now (which they don't have, trust me) on some exotic lenses for a new camera system that's just being introduced is not financially sound. These new lenses costs them a lot more (even with a Zeiss partnership) than it did for Leica when they introduced their first digital M. Leica has had these lenses out there long before digital with the more current ones as primarily tweaks based on existing designs and existing assembly techniques, etc.. But if this new venture does gain momentum and can be at all profitable for Sony, there will certainly be some specialty lenses coming eventually. Nonetheless, there definitely will be certain restrictions due to AF (e.g., size; Leica doesn't have to deal with AF.) But once again, this is not a Sony venture into 'becoming Leica.' It's a venture into FF mirror less directed at a much broader market. And if anything, at least other manufacturers will feel compelled now to start going into the compact FF direction. And that's all good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1258 Posted October 20, 2013 I don't know, these Sony-Zeiss lenses are getting a pretty great reputation for lenses that we haven't even seen yet. Not to mention that it is going to be more than a year before a lot of these promised lenses show up. By that time we may know something about the next generation M. Now we seem to have a Sony system that may jump past the Leica M system (only if the lenses are there, big if) in image quality, certainly the RX1 caught up. I guess it is Sony's turn to have some of the spotlight. Same game all over again as Sony now tries to get ahead with a new updated body. Then, Leica will introduce a new body and sensor and here we go again. Only difference is that Leica has all the system lenses that make the system. Don't loose the scent or you may loose the path... lenses are the real path. I still don't see much in the Sony line up of lenses promised that is going to match Canon or Leica. Where is the 24-70/2.8? Long way off. Not to mention great Zeiss and Sigma lenses people already have in their bag for Leica, Canon and Nikon. The RX1 does one thing well. And, Canon and Nikon have entire systems with synced speed lights and fast AF lines of lenses etc. I think the A7 series will be a great pro-sumer camera for sure, but kept in context. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1259 Posted October 20, 2013 Don't loose the scent or you may loose the path... lenses are the real path. +1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenInTime Posted October 20, 2013 Share #1260 Posted October 20, 2013 You wait forever for the bus then two come along at the same time. Nikon FF EVIL : http://nikonrumors.com/2013/10/20/breaking-new-nikon-full-frame-hybrid-mirrorless-camera-coming-soon.aspx/ "The announcement will be in the next 2-3 months, but it could happen as soon as next week during the PDN PhotoPlus show in New York" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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