AlanG Posted October 14, 2013 Share #481 Posted October 14, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Leica's answer was the XV That is probably why Leica opened their own stores, so that buyers won't be confused by dealers showing the competition. My bet is that Leica considered making a camera like this a few years ago (M with built in EVF) but did not have access to the technology or the resources to develop it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 14, 2013 Posted October 14, 2013 Hi AlanG, Take a look here The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
CalArts 99 Posted October 14, 2013 Share #482 Posted October 14, 2013 But I suspect those who are considering a Leica M and who never used Leica before are likely to take a look at the Sony. If it is as good as some are suggesting and hoping, I suspect Leica will lose some M sales. Or perhaps for those like myself who have been using Leica for a long, long time but never got that excited about the Leica M digital offerings. We keep using our film M Leicas and instead have looked elsewhere for digital. And while we certainly like mechanical rangefinders (keeping us in Leica optics and still using our film Ms), we realize the paradigm is shifting in the digital world. Despite not having an optical rangefinder, a high MP count FF camera body with advanced and reliable Japanese electronics that can utilize top quality Leica lenses is very desirable (and the build quality is reported to be like the Pentax LX which was one of the most underrated pro system cameras ever made.) I'm not married to a red dot nor to a rangefinder, and especially not one with a huge price tag (and for a camera that has much shorter life span than its film counterpart.) And the EVF does make a lot of sense today. Anyway, the bottom line is the image it produces. And if a Leica lens can be properly used (and focused properly without concerns about the rangefinder being out of spec, etc..) then so be it.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJH Posted October 14, 2013 Share #483 Posted October 14, 2013 The thing is though as I pointed out earlier this is a very different type of camera to an M, it is the classic 80's compact SLR in digital form at very long last. Its likely to take more sales from enthusiast pro-am SLRs than Leica IMHO. I will likely buy one for wide angle, macro and telephoto work but will keep using either an M8 or M9 for much the same reasons photographers bought Leica RFs 30 years ago only now I could in theory use the same M mount lenses on both cameras if I wanted. The current proposed pricing seems to make it roughly the same price here for an M-E + this new Sony compared to a single M240. Certainly creates an interesting choice that we didn't really have before. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 14, 2013 Share #484 Posted October 14, 2013 The thing is though as I pointed out earlier this is a very different type of camera to an M,.. Yes but it is not much different conceptually than an M with an EVF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJH Posted October 14, 2013 Share #485 Posted October 14, 2013 Very true but I don't find that a particularly interesting camera in terms of its new to M technology. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 14, 2013 Share #486 Posted October 14, 2013 Very true but I don't find that a particularly interesting camera in terms of its new to M technology. My point is that compact cameras like this with EVFs are where cameras are heading. The M is there too but with the EVF as an option adding a bit more bulk. This design has the advantage of being compact but also powerful and versatile. Few are going to want a camera that does not have this EVF/live view capability and Leica knows it too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 14, 2013 Share #487 Posted October 14, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Basic difference. The M is a rangefinder that can be disguised as a TTL camera whilst the Sonys are TTL cameras that can not be disguised as rangefinders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphalam Posted October 15, 2013 Share #488 Posted October 15, 2013 I'm very looking forward to focus peaking with M lenses. We don't have to worry about focus shift and focus plane not in the center. No more focus bracketing: Leica M9 M240 Focus Bracketing Techniques when shooting Wide Open on Vimeo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 15, 2013 Share #489 Posted October 15, 2013 Basic difference. The M is a rangefinder that can be disguised as a TTL camera whilst the Sonys are TTL cameras that can not be disguised as rangefinders. Or, put another way (less pejoratively), both are full frame and compact, both take Leica lenses, but the M has a built in coupled optical viewfinder with a clip on EVF, the Sony has a built in EVF. I prefer the built in optical rangefinder, but I think to make a lot of the difference between these two cameras is splitting hairs. For Leica users, the CRF is a core point. For the market, the critical point is that this is a compact full frame system camera. It'll sell like hotcakes, and a huge number of the buyers will be people who own Leica glass (sorry, that's the wrong way round - a huge number of Leica glass owners will buy them), and a significant number of the people who buy the camera will go looking for good glass - second hand Leica, Zeiss and CV. Leica's loss. We'll never know, but my view is that these Sony cameras will outsell the XV by a mile, and Leica would have used their time better developing a camera like this than sticking a zoom (no matter how good it is) on the front of an X2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.liam Posted October 15, 2013 Share #490 Posted October 15, 2013 An electronic viewfinder, interchangeable lens (EVIL) camera with a full frame sensor that will come in 24mp and 36mp versions. Featuring entirely new sensors with offset micro lenses (like the M9/M240) and no AA filter (on the 36mp version). And these new cameras will come with a new line of AF lenses, or you can use your Leica M lenses with an adapter. Nope, never crossed my mind.... Ha! Can't wait for this digital option for my M, R and Nikon F mounts that really have never disappointed (NOCT, CV 125) in one high resolution, compact body. 1kg (+) DSLRs are dead. See, Leica promised there would be a good solution for R lens owners. Been knocked about by various sorts here when I had the temerity of questioning Leica's strategy. Love my M6 and am unlikely (ever) to part with my .85 Classic but a 36MP Sony for US$2,000 that can handle my M and R lenses and down-sampled to 18 & 24 MP respectively will likely provide a seriously competitive result compared to a combined $15k for an MM and an M240? Tough call.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted October 15, 2013 Share #491 Posted October 15, 2013 HI StephenActually, and worth noting. As far as I'm aware the M240 does NOT have offset micro lenses. The CMOSIS sensor uses shallower wells to accommodate wide angled lenses - colour vignetting can still occur (and needs correcting in software), but it avoids the colour shift problems which plagued the M8 and M9. Thanks Jono, sorry for my mis-information. I remember seeing a cross section diagram of the new CMOSIS design early on, with traced ray angles striking the new micro lenses and traveling to the shallower wells, explaining how they were solving the high angle of incidence problem. My mistake was in not understanding that this design is uniform over the entire sensor. I appreciate you correcting me!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozkar Posted October 15, 2013 Share #492 Posted October 15, 2013 Thanks Jono, sorry for my mis-information. I remember seeing a cross section diagram of the new CMOSIS design early on, with traced ray angles striking the new micro lenses and traveling to the shallower wells, explaining how they were solving the high angle of incidence problem. My mistake was in not understanding that this design is uniform over the entire sensor. I appreciate you correcting me!!! Has Sony specifically stated they will use a micro-lense array, as per the M9? Perhaps they will just adopt the same approach as CMOSIS for the M240. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted October 15, 2013 Share #493 Posted October 15, 2013 Has Sony specifically stated they will use a micro-lense array, as per the M9? Perhaps they will just adopt the same approach as CMOSIS for the M240. Until the official announcement Wed. this is all second hand information, so we will have to wait and see. However there have been reports that Sony is using micro lenses on this new sensor to deal with the short flange distance. Also reports that Sony will be offering a Leica M mount adapter. For now we will just have to be patient, but I have a good feeling that we're about to get something pretty fantastic from Sony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borge Posted October 15, 2013 Share #494 Posted October 15, 2013 By the way... Is that a MODE/SCENE button I see on the top of the camera body, and not a shutter speed dial? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcg Posted October 15, 2013 Share #495 Posted October 15, 2013 This link seems to lead to a leaked review by Digilloyd Google cache browser proxy page Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolf1h Posted October 15, 2013 Share #496 Posted October 15, 2013 Der von der NEX-7 (nur APS-C) ist kaum brauchbar mit M-Optiken <35mm, der 24MP-Sony-Vollformat-Sensor verhält sich wohl ähnlich. Die A7/A7r ist sicherlich ein wichtiger Schritt für Vollformat-Kameras, aber wohl kaum für Leica-M-Optiken mit kurzer Brennweite. Wer keine M240 hat (z.B. aus Budgetgründen) und seine M9 weiternutzen wird, bekommt vielleicht ein einigermaßen erschwingliches (Zweit-) Gehäuse für den mittleren bis Telebereich und dies mit einem möglicherweise hervorragenden Sensor. Dann würden u.a. endlich die Probleme mit der Fokussierung und dem Bildausschnitt für z.B. das 135er APO ein gutes Ende finden. Und wer weiß, vielleicht ist auch die Kombination mit den R Optiken mindestens genauso interessant - so man sie nicht, wie ich leider, vor längerem aus Frust über die Leica Produktpolitik verkauft hat. Jedenfalls könnte jetzt tatsächlich eine ernsthafte Konkurrenz zum Leica Gehäuse heranwachsen, auch wenn dieses optisch und vom 'touch and feel' offenbar eine unerreichbare Design Ikone bleiben wird. Zudem verspricht die 'Kooperation' Sony-Zeiss für die Zukunft weitere interessante Optiken, auch wenn das etwas dauern mag. Und spätestens dann muss man sich in Solms/Wetzlar warm anziehen. Anmerkung: Ich fotografiere seit 40 Jahren aus Überzeugung (manche sagen aus Verbohrtheit) ausschließlich mit Leica - das könnte sich ändern, vielleicht. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
onceuponatime Posted October 15, 2013 Share #497 Posted October 15, 2013 Will these bodies be weather sealed? Or is that being saved for a future update? Yes A7/r are weather sealed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted October 15, 2013 Share #498 Posted October 15, 2013 And Leica wastes limited and precious development resources to surprise the world with cameras as irrelevant as the X Vario........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted October 15, 2013 Share #499 Posted October 15, 2013 Well the initial lens selection from Sony was extremely disappointing. Zeiss FE 24-70mm f/4.0 OSS Sony G 28-70mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS Zeiss FE 35mm f/2.8 Zeiss FE 55mm f/1.8 Zeiss FE 70-200mm f/4.0 OSS (coming early 2014) ?? I was expecting some premium fast lenses like a 28/2, 35/1.4, 50/1.4, 90/2. Those seem to be high quality lenses with small size. New (faster) lenses will come later, for sure. These cameras are not rangefinders. The problem is how expensive digital M are. This becomes more obvious when a new line of cameras like these Sonys come into light. The rumored prices are very competitive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 15, 2013 Share #500 Posted October 15, 2013 This is pretty special stuff,really want to know how big it is in the hand. Does it have IBIS? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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