The Sony A7 thread [Merged]

[AlanG]

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Mobile phones are getting better but battery life is getting shorter. In contrast new digital cameras are getting better and better with improved battery performance, new M included.

 

I notice latest Nokia phone is being marketed as 41Mp wonder, big deal for those who fall for such parameter. What is really cool, for me at least, is full frame sensor and it is safe to say that full frame sensor in mobile phone want be happening any time soon.

 

I am not trying to say this will replace your M. What I am getting at is all kinds of non traditional photography companies are moving into this field with creative ideas. The 41 MP is not just for the final product but for a sub-sampling system and for cropping. They are also selling some kind of grip to make it easier to use as a camera. But the full 41MP can be used if desired which is pretty revolutionary for such a tiny device. I'd love to have a GoPro type camera that can shoot aerial stills at that quality. Add on battery packs and replaceable batteries for cell phones are already common. What else Nokia or other companies will do with this type of technology and other technology that is being developed remains to be seen.

 

And I think that future cameras will have better communication with one's cell phone or some kind of interchangeable cell phone module... including full frame cameras. The Canon 6D with wifi is the start of this for FF cameras. I'd bet that most future Canon models will have the ability to communicate with a smartphone. Recent models of Sony Nex cameras have this feature. And clearly Nikon is worried.

 

So what I am saying is even Leica will be running a risk if it ignores these and many other developments. How it affects you or me is not really so relevant. But I'd bet dollars to donuts that a full frame mirrorless camera that works well with M lenses will be out no later than 5 years from now, and maybe any day soon.

[CheshireCat]

Mobile phones are getting better but battery life is getting shorter. In contrast new digital cameras are getting better and better with improved battery performance, new M included.

 

The new M has a beefier battery and got fatter.

New mobiles, in turn, are getting smaller and smaller.

 

Actually, for the same size and features, mobile phones battery life is getting longer.

 

Of course, if you want the new 1mm thick phone with 4 CPU cores at 2 GHz and 1080p display, be prepared to charge every day

 

P.S. Current mobile phones chips are generations ahead of the M, regarding both computational power and performance per watt.

[mmradman]

Of course, if you want the new 1mm thick phone with 4 CPU cores at 2 GHz and 1080p display, be prepared to charge every day

 

P.S. Current mobile phones chips are generations ahead of the M, regarding both computational power and performance per watt.

 

Twice a day is more likely.

[colonel]

When (and if) Sony release something, only then we should talk

 

I suspect if they do it will be cheaper then Leica, but not amazingly cheaper (i.e. £2,000 for the body and £500-£2,000 for a lens). If Sony have any brains (and they do) then I am sure there will be Zeiss lenses available from launch.

 

So then it will be entirely price, workflow, handling, construction and brand/cache issues that will determine which you purchase (as both with undoubtedly product great pictures).

 

I suspect anyone who purchases on features alone will not be going with Leica, but that was never Leica's USP right !

[naturephoto1]

For many of us orphaned Leica R users with a large collection of R lenses we did not find the M240 as our "R Solution". There were too many restrictions for the new Leica M and it was quite costly in part due to the RF.

 

For many of us in this boat, we are watching with real interest regarding the rumored Sony FF NEX. If it comes in with the features, performance, handling and cost that we might want this may be our solution that we have been waiting for since 2009. It would allow us view through and focus our lenses at working aperture.

 

Hopefully whatever Sony releases will allow us to mount our R lenses without the requirement of changing our lens mounts as we would with the Sony Alpha cameras. If this is the case we can use our R lenses on both the digital FF Sony and our film Leica R cameras without any mount changes. If the new Sony FF NEX plays well with the WA Leica M lenses so much the better.

 

Rich

[jaapv]

I don't get it. The R solution in this sense has existed for ages in putting the lenses on an 5D. ThIs implies dragging two systems along like we used to. As te idea of putting them on the NEX it basically the same, you are simply using a different body.

The whole point about an R solution for me is to use the same body for all my lenses, M and R. As the vaporware ff NEX is highly unlikely to perform optimally on shorter M lenses it is not the solution either.

That leaves the M. I have been trying it out on the 105-280 with a 1.4 extender yesterday.

That combo works well. Focussing is easy, even more accurate than my R9 used to be I must confess shamefacedly. The switching between 5x and full view is well implemented ergonomically, the focus peaking functions as advertised.

The main gripe I have is the blackout after the shot, although it is quite short with a fast card.

And the image is not as pretty as my home computer screen, or a good optical SLR matte screen.

 

Good enough to reduce my traveling backpack by one size and a couple of Kg.

 

On a side note - I find any NEX body (or any other one of the cameras that are mentioned in the forum) simply too small and light to handle well on long and heavy R lenses. It is not just about image quality or getting away from Leica. I need to be able to take real-life photographs with the combo. A set that can only be used on a tripod does not cut it for me.

[lct]

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I don't get it. The R solution in this sense has existed for ages in putting the lenses on an 5D...

Sure but the finder darkens when you stop down and focussing becomes difficult with anything but long teles then, let alone with split image or microprisms focus screens. As for handheld focussing, i don't know how you achieve this with your M240's EFV. The latter becomes so blurry when the subject matter or the camera moves that i am reluctant to order an R adapter personally. I will end up doing so sooner or later i guess but it will be for tripod use only most probably.

[jaapv]

At 10x it does get too nervous, but in my hands 5x is fine with 400 mm.

[lct]

400mm = 8x, 8x5 = 40x handheld. I envy you.

[naturephoto1]

Sure but the finder darkens when you stop down and focussing becomes difficult with anything but long teles then, let alone with split image or microprisms focus screens. As for handheld focussing, i don't know how you achieve this with your M240's EFV. The latter becomes so blurry when the subject matter or the camera moves that i am reluctant to order an R adapter personally. I will end up doing so sooner or later i guess but it will be for tripod use only most probably.

 

In the case of the 5D as an example, you would frequently use a 2 step process. You would use the R lenses wide open to focus and then stop down to working aperture. Very inconvenient and slow.

 

With the M240 there are issues including the lack of the scrolling capabilities in the EVF finder. Also, the camera will only shoot long exposures to as long as 60 seconds. For these reasons for the time being at least, I am using the Fujifilm. XE-1. This may become my 2nd body.

 

At present there are no FF digital cameras that allow the usage of the R lenses at stopped down working apertures without focusing wide open to begin with. That is part of the beauty of using a mirrorless camera. I know that at least for the time being that this limits following a fast moving subject. But...

 

If the new Sony FF NEX mirrorless does allow the mounting of the R lenses without modification this would allow the usage of the R lenses at working aperture more like working with our SL and R camera model bodies. It should also allow for a scrolling EVF finder, focus peaking (for the those situations which I believe can be moved), long exposure capabilities, etc. If Leica had offered these capabilities with a much faster refresh rate for the EVF many more of us would have clamored to purchase the camera. If the issue of playing well with the Leica M lenses can be addressed by the new Sony FF NEX camera so much the better. But many of us R users only had an R system. So with the M240 as an example, we were paying a premium cost for RF focusing. So, unless we then purchased M WA lenses we paid dearly for the privilege of using M lenses.

 

As I am approaching 60 years old and now having had Quadruple Bypass Heart Surgery just over 8 weeks ago, I can not afford to wait another 3 to 5 or so years for Leica to come out with the successor to the M240 that offers the abilities that I have mentioned. For my work, I need to have the ability to more the EVF focus points for many compositions including those at high magnification (telephoto) and macro work. Having to re-position the camera on a tripod to focus and then to re-compose is a slow process and the result may be I do not get the composition that I wanted. Additionally the limitation for the long shutter speeds and preclude my abilities to use ND and other filters for very long exposure.

 

Rich

[jaapv]

400mm = 8x, 8x5 = 40x handheld. I envy you.

I've been shooting these big rigs for 30 years now

[lct]

In the case of the 5D as an example, you would frequently use a 2 step process. You would use the R lenses wide open to focus and then stop down to working aperture. Very inconvenient and slow....

Yes too slow for me, reason why i focus stop down. No problem up to f/4-f/5.6 with a good focus screen.

[BerndReini]

What problems with the Leica sensor?

 

It is funny you are asking what problems after you quote me on one of them. IR sensitivity, vignetting, color edges, just to name three of the aspects that were solved better with the CCD sensor in the M9. I am not saying that there weren't improvements over the M9 sensor in other areas, but search the forum for examples or shoot your own comparisons and you will see that the three things I just mentioned are problematic with the new CMOSis sensor.

 

And trust me, I have no desire to shoot with a Sony camera, but their sensors are far superior to those of any other manufacturer. If you don't believe me, take a look at the files from an RX1R or a D800E with a good lens. Again, I don't like shooting with these cameras, but the files are pretty amazing.

[lct]

How could existing Sony sensors perform better than the M240 on Leica lenses?

[jaapv]

Yes too slow for me, reason why i focus stop down. No problem up to f/4-f/5.6 with a good focus screen.

And you wouldn't want to stop down more on a long lens; you want to keep the shutter speed high to combat motion blur. Reason that these lenses are optimized at wide apertures.

[naturephoto1]

And you wouldn't want to stop down more on a long lens; you want to keep the shutter speed high to combat motion blur. Reason that these lenses are optimized at wide apertures.

 

That is not always the case. When I use long lenses for landscape images, I frequently want a little more DOF. So, for example when using my 280mm f4 Apo Telyt, I may stop down to f8.

 

Rich

[macjonny1]

It is funny you are asking what problems after you quote me on one of them. IR sensitivity, vignetting, color edges, just to name three of the aspects that were solved better with the CCD sensor in the M9. I am not saying that there weren't improvements over the M9 sensor in other areas, but search the forum for examples or shoot your own comparisons and you will see that the three things I just mentioned are problematic with the new CMOSis sensor.

 

And trust me, I have no desire to shoot with a Sony camera, but their sensors are far superior to those of any other manufacturer. If you don't believe me, take a look at the files from an RX1R or a D800E with a good lens. Again, I don't like shooting with these cameras, but the files are pretty amazing.

 

They are not *far* superior, maybe slightly better, except for ISO, and I've used the D800E and RX1 and M now.

[CheshireCat]

They are not *far* superior, maybe slightly better, except for ISO, and I've used the D800E and RX1 and M now.

 

Ok, they are slightly far superior

[jaapv]

That is not always the case. When I use long lenses for landscape images, I frequently want a little more DOF. So, for example when using my 280mm f4 Apo Telyt, I may stop down to f8.

 

Rich

Which means you are using it on a tripod anyway, so probably via LiveView. Then obviously, scrolling would be a handy thing to have, but the quality of the EVF is not relevant.

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[BerndReini]

How could existing Sony sensors perform better than the M240 on Leica lenses?

 

They don't, which brings us full circle. As I've said earlier in this thread: Sony will not make a full-frame camera for Leica lenses, maybe for a line of Zeiss lenses, but not for M lenses.