CheshireCat Posted June 30, 2013 Share #61 Posted June 30, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Lloyd makes many accurate observations about the cameras and lenses that he tests. Yet, there is something about his tone and attitude that is abrasive, unpleasant and unprofessional and I can't bring myself to renew a subscription. And yet there is something about Leica's attitude that is unpleasant, unprofessional, approximate, broken and cheap that makes me feel I am being ripped off and the M will probably be my last Leica camera. I am not even paying for bleeding edge research as Leica lags several years behind. My money was perfectly working, therefore my camera MUST be perfectly working. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 30, 2013 Posted June 30, 2013 Hi CheshireCat, Take a look here diglloyd: "Leica M Typ240: Unreliable". I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted June 30, 2013 Share #62 Posted June 30, 2013 ...If you read his review of the M240 from earlier this year (completed with a loaned copy), you will see his strong approval of the camera... Is there a free link to this review or a sum up of it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted June 30, 2013 Share #63 Posted June 30, 2013 Again so much Huff and Puff between "attackers" and "defenders"? Is it acceptable to anyone receive such a lemon from a company who trumpets so loudly their commitment to absolute quality? I would argue no, it is unacceptable. Does that reflect on anything else? The cameras quality in all other areas? The reviewers character? Any other camera being or not? No, it's independent of anything else. He received a buggy body, he documented that. I respect Jono's approach that "when it's wrong I tell Leica, when it's right I tell the readers", but I personally welcome a balanced "warts and all" account of the reviewers experience - as a potential buyer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 30, 2013 Share #64 Posted June 30, 2013 Digitalfx, perhaps read the man's publications, unless it is just fun to joke about luck. Because Leica only makes demo's available to a few in their circle, Lloyd posted a request and finally was loaned an M240 and 50 AA by one of his readers... I understand that few Leica forum members are subscribers of diglloyd.com, but his business is actually pretty good because in addition to Leica he covers Zeiss, Nikon and small chip cameras with objective comparisons that are not matched by any other reviewer I have heard of. His quite favorable review of that early M240 was posted in April, I believe. Lloyd was finally able to scrounge up new, Leica USA dealer deliveries for an M240 and 50 AA. The post that apparently puts you off was written about several days work with the new (lemon) M240. So, there are no demos involved, and there is a lot more information if you read the posts that have been referred to in this thread. Jaap, I understand you to say that you reject diglloyd's reliability because you interpret his comment about rangefinder problems as an ignoramus' error about how an optical rangefinder works. I would also urge you to read some of diglloyd's work before taking that interpretaion... I think he is saying that the rotational sloppiness in his M240's lens mount throws off the alignment of the tracking wheel that registers (in the body) where the lens sits on its focus travel. Certainly when I rotate my lens off of full lock (even as little as I can, which is not easy because my lock is thankfully very, very tight), the registration of focus patches in the OVF moves a little. Do you find that just putting the lens onto the body mount, regardless of rotational position relative to the lock, brings correct rangefinder function (i.e., focus readout)? Peter No - you understand me wrong - I do not take Digiloyd seriously because of basic errors about photographic theory in the past, as I have read his work. I have no specific opinion on this one, other than the ones I posted before. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 30, 2013 Share #65 Posted June 30, 2013 ...He received a buggy body, he documented that... I can understand that but i find curious that he posts negative comments for free and asks a toll for positive ones if any. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted June 30, 2013 Share #66 Posted June 30, 2013 Again so much Huff and Puff between "attackers" and "defenders"? Is it acceptable to anyone receive such a lemon from a company who trumpets so loudly their commitment to absolute quality? I would argue no, it is unacceptable. I can tell you Leica lost a sale to me of a new 240. They can't repair my M8 if the screen goes and want a ludicrous amount to replace the viewfinder LEDs that have failed, partially, which is worse as they are visible but irritating. They promised upgrades "forever" although later retracted, so I can't believe any of their marketing speak. I still have a Nikon D2H which is flawless in performance from 2003. I think I have had value from that camera but not from the M8. All I read is they can't even attach strap lugs properly these days but can open "boutiques" they can't build cameras to ship but they can tease everyone with a mini M and produce, well whatever it is it isn't that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted June 30, 2013 Share #67 Posted June 30, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I can understand that but i find curious that he posts negative comments for free and asks a toll for positive ones if any. Check his blog posts lct, they're all kind of nit picky, slightly critical in "tone". If you read the M240 review with a clear head he's loving the M240 in general, is critical of the software/electronic implementation and looking forward to it's improvement in firmware. I'm still looking for that in my M9, so it is a valid point of view! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted June 30, 2013 Share #68 Posted June 30, 2013 I can tell you Leica lost a sale to me of a new 240. They can't repair my M8 if the screen goes and want a ludicrous amount to replace the viewfinder LEDs that have failed, partially, which is worse as they are visible but irritating. They promised upgrades "forever" although later retracted, so I can't believe any of their marketing speak.I still have a Nikon D2H which is flawless in performance from 2003. I think I have had value from that camera but not from the M8. All I read is they can't even attach strap lugs properly these days but can open "boutiques" they can't build cameras to ship but they can tease everyone with a mini M and produce, well whatever it is it isn't that. My take is similar though the negatives are still 'just' outweighed by the positives. Following Jono's comments about the company being a collection of groups with diverse goals I see Leica differently. I see almost perfect mechanical design and production capability. I see perfect optical design and production capability. I see poor QC. Poor electronic / software capability. Poor marketing. And I'll get flamed for this but poor management, for not bringing the weaknesses in check. I like to think that one day Leica will be as good in all areas as they are at designing and producing both the MP and the new 50 cron APO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 30, 2013 Share #69 Posted June 30, 2013 Check his blog posts lct, they're all kind of nit picky, slightly critical in "tone"... This one sounds like camera bashing i must say, i would not expect that from a serious reviewer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted June 30, 2013 Share #70 Posted June 30, 2013 This one sounds like camera bashing i must say, i would not expect that from a serious reviewer. Yeah, know what you mean, but knowing and reading his other posts does provide some context. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 30, 2013 Share #71 Posted June 30, 2013 I welcome the omen but the guy won't gain this client. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pieterpronk Posted June 30, 2013 Share #72 Posted June 30, 2013 I think somebody should set up a survey of who currently has a subscription with Diglloyd and what they think about his view about the M240. Obviously only people that pay for and have a subscription at this moment have a valid viewpoint on his articles, just like only people with a M240 can comment on it's colors or reliability. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted June 30, 2013 Share #73 Posted June 30, 2013 I think somebody should set up a survey of who currently has a subscription with Diglloyd and what they think about his view about the M240. Obviously only people that pay for and have a subscription at this moment have a valid viewpoint on his articles, just like only people with a M240 can comment on it's colors or reliability.You really thinks this is so fascinating that it's worthwhile to set up the survey you suggest? On your second point, I cannot agree either: even not having an M240 one can see hundreds of shots and also download DNG files to process oneself — this can give anyone interested enough sufficient information to judge whether the color rendition (at this stage of firmware, etc.) is something that one likes. —Mitch/Bangkok Bangkok Obvious [WIP] Eggleston said that he was "at war with the obvious"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted June 30, 2013 Share #74 Posted June 30, 2013 I think it was a pretty obvious joke, Mitch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted June 30, 2013 Share #75 Posted June 30, 2013 I think somebody should set up a survey of who currently has a subscription with Diglloyd and what they think about his view about the M240. Obviously only people that pay for and have a subscription at this moment have a valid viewpoint on his articles, just like only people with a M240 can comment on it's colors or reliability. What I think about his view of the M240 is not as relevant as what I think about the camera. His view is simply one data point among many on the Internet. These include other reviews and files from the camera. His happens to be a negative data point, but I don't think that one review, whether positive or negative, is a basis for making a decision to buy. He is entitled to his opinion of course, and I am entitled to mine, which is the camera is a very good tool indeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpwhite Posted June 30, 2013 Share #76 Posted June 30, 2013 I can understand that but i find curious that he posts negative comments for free and asks a toll for positive ones if any. lct, actually diglloyd writes his most abrasive critiques behind the pay wall, as it is called here. So, if you really want to get inflammatory reviews about Leica or Nikon or Zeiss, you have to pay the subscription. RickLeica asked why I defended Lloyd. I did not mean to defend Llyod, per se, as much as express disappointment that any criticism of Leica products is usually poopooed on this site. My concern started with Jaap, who expresses a lot of valid opinions here , categorically tossing out diglloyd's complaint about receiving a $7,000 lemon as being an unreliable review. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted June 30, 2013 Share #77 Posted June 30, 2013 I see almost perfect mechanical design and production capability. I see perfect optical design and production capability. I see poor QC. Poor electronic / software capability. Poor marketing. And I'll get flamed for this but poor management, for not bringing the weaknesses in check. I like to think that one day Leica will be as good in all areas as they are at designing and producing both the MP and the new 50 cron APO. Wow. I am glad you posted this. I agree 100% with this. Exactly - maybe exaggerated in both directions (good and bad), but I get the general point. I would suggest that you and I have the same, but opposite "problem." We both want Leica and those that read here to understand that we can't sweep these important points away in a wave of irrational fanboyism or irrational anti-Leica sentiment. Your post would make a great general topic for a thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted June 30, 2013 Share #78 Posted June 30, 2013 My take is similar though the negatives are still 'just' outweighed by the positives. Following Jono's comments about the company being a collection of groups with diverse goals I see Leica differently. I see almost perfect mechanical design and production capability. I see perfect optical design and production capability. I see poor QC. Poor electronic / software capability. Poor marketing. And I'll get flamed for this but poor management, for not bringing the weaknesses in check. I like to think that one day Leica will be as good in all areas as they are at designing and producing both the MP and the new 50 cron APO. For that to happen maybe they need to hire top people for their lacking areas... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted June 30, 2013 Share #79 Posted June 30, 2013 For that to happen maybe they need to hire top people for their lacking areas... You seem to be an expert in all areas... maybe you could suggest your services? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 30, 2013 Share #80 Posted June 30, 2013 lct, actually diglloyd writes his most abrasive critiques behind the pay wall, as it is called here. So, if you really want to get inflammatory reviews about Leica or Nikon or Zeiss, you have to pay the subscription... I prefer balanced reviews personally so i think i will look elsewhere definitely. Thanks for sharing anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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