sfage Posted June 11, 2013 Share #1801 Posted June 11, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Wow. On the Leica FB page, there doesn't appear to be a single person that is happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 11, 2013 Posted June 11, 2013 Hi sfage, Take a look here Mini M? [MERGED] AKA X-Vario. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dkCambridgeshire Posted June 11, 2013 Share #1802 Posted June 11, 2013 Wow. On the Leica FB page, there doesn't appear to be a single person that is happy. The FB lemmings are suffering from the same hysteria. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.gt Posted June 11, 2013 Share #1803 Posted June 11, 2013 Wow. On the Leica FB page, there doesn't appear to be a single person that is happy. FB and forums all have group behavioral situations. Pack Mentality, Herding, and especially the bandwagon effect: Bandwagon effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia One only needs to think for themselves to avoid the group behavioral problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pieterpronk Posted June 11, 2013 Share #1804 Posted June 11, 2013 They probably cut the price to try and maintain market share which in the crowded market place is being sought by all the dog eat dog far east camera manufacturers. dunk Yes. So while one company understands the market is crowded by multiple aps-c sized sensor cameras which can mount zoom lenses and thus decides to drop the price, there is another company that thinks their aps-c sensor camera with a fixed lens which is slower than any of the competitors, is so special that they can sell it at twice or thrice the price in this crowded market. It's slow. It lacks image stabilisation. It lacks an evf. And you cant even change its lens. Some people seem to think there is some mythical market with magically rich people who won't understand that it it twice as much money as any of the competitors while not caring that it lacks IS and EVF. Somehow these mythical rich buyers of this 2500 dollar camera only care about the red dot, the nice styling and MAYBE a marginal better image quality... Sorry, but these people simply do not exist. Sadly, because this fiasco will be financed by my purchase of the MM, instead of that money financing something worthwhile like a proper way to distribute a flagship camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.gt Posted June 11, 2013 Share #1805 Posted June 11, 2013 Hmmm...now what would a full frame camera give you with the zoom lens and terrific IQ already in place with the X vario? Got individual lenses already? Then Leica needs you to buy the ME or M to use them on, not a cheaper camera. A vario camera is really quite the answer for smaller cameras with a fixed lens IMO. Nice complement to the X1/X2. But, I would actually prefer the D-Lux 6 wishing only that it looked similar to the X1/X2. Then, I would have all focal lengths below 100 covered with two small cameras fitting in my Leica combination bag. A great small Leica kit. My M3 and R4 can take care of everything else I may need... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.gt Posted June 11, 2013 Share #1806 Posted June 11, 2013 Yes. So while one company understands the market is crowded by multiple aps-c sized sensor cameras which can mount zoom lenses and thus decides to drop the price, there is another company that thinks their aps-c sensor camera with a fixed lens which is slower than any of the competitors, is so special that they can sell it at twice or thrice the price in this crowded market.It's slow. It lacks image stabilisation. It lacks an evf. And you cant even change its lens. Some people seem to think there is some mythical market with magically rich people who won't understand that it it twice as much money as any of the competitors while not caring that it lacks IS and EVF. Somehow these mythical rich buyers of this 2500 dollar camera only care about the red dot, the nice styling and MAYBE a marginal better image quality... Sorry, but these people simply do not exist. Sadly, because this fiasco will be financed by my purchase of the MM, instead of that money financing something worthwhile like a proper way to distribute a flagship camera. Jeez, you purchased or are purchasing the MM with all the expensive lenses and call buyers of a $2500 camera rich? The X vario is not a "flagship" camera, the "M" is the core flagship. X bodies are niche cameras and I would love to have one. Nothing there that I would complain about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Spohn Posted June 11, 2013 Share #1807 Posted June 11, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) FB and forums all have group behavioral situations. Pack Mentality, Herding, and especially the bandwagon effect: Bandwagon effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia One only needs to think for themselves to avoid the group behavioral problems. I agree. I've seen this behavior on many forums, and have been guilty of it myself. However, Leica over promised and under delivered with this camera. My Sony RX-100 covers my pocket camera needs. I would be more interested in the X Vario if the lens were not so slow*. That is not a problem for landscape photos when I'm using a tripod, but when I'm shooting musicians on stage in dim light as I was last weekend the f/4.9 limit on the long end of my RX-100 presents problems even at ISO 3200. At least that camera has built-in IS. *I'd rather pay $3500 for an X Vario with an f/2 to f/2.8 lens and EVF than buy the current offering. Other people's mileage and opinions will vary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted June 11, 2013 Share #1808 Posted June 11, 2013 Yes. So while one company understands the market is crowded by multiple aps-c sized sensor cameras which can mount zoom lenses and thus decides to drop the price, there is another company that thinks their aps-c sensor camera with a fixed lens which is slower than any of the competitors, is so special that they can sell it at twice or thrice the price in this crowded market.It's slow. It lacks image stabilisation. It lacks an evf. And you cant even change its lens. Some people seem to think there is some mythical market with magically rich people who won't understand that it it twice as much money as any of the competitors while not caring that it lacks IS and EVF. Somehow these mythical rich buyers of this 2500 dollar camera only care about the red dot, the nice styling and MAYBE a marginal better image quality... Sorry, but these people simply do not exist. Sadly, because this fiasco will be financed by my purchase of the MM, instead of that money financing something worthwhile like a proper way to distribute a flagship camera. The red dot cameras are relatively low volume products compared to the zillions produced by Far East manufacturers. Scarcity and lack of it dictates high and low prices. Economies of scale and therefore reduced costs can only be effected by implementing large scale production. Leica is not a mass producer of cameras or lenses compared to the volumes made in the Far East. Low volume products have their special attributes which are appreciated by those who recognise and desire them. Leica has been very innovative with its special products and their special attributes. Sometimes those attributes are subtle and not many people can appreciate them ... but those people who can appreciate Leica cameras' subtleties (and they do exist) , stay with the Leica brand because of the satisfaction the products give them. And they continue to use Leica's legacy products too - not just because the goods are very good but because they also have a bonding factor and longevity which other manufacturers have failed to produce. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfage Posted June 11, 2013 Share #1809 Posted June 11, 2013 The FB lemmings are suffering from the same hysteria. dunk ... no... I don't think so... basically, "everything" else is a better deal... for less money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted June 11, 2013 Share #1810 Posted June 11, 2013 I agree. I've seen this behavior on many forums, and have been guilty of it myself. However, Leica over promised and under delivered with this camera. My Sony RX-100 covers my pocket camera needs. I would be more interested in the X Vario if the lens were not so slow*. That is not a problem for landscape photos when I'm using a tripod, but when I'm shooting musicians on stage in dim light as I was last weekend the f/4.9 limit on the long end of my RX-100 presents problems even at ISO 3200. At least that camera has built-in IS. *I'd rather pay $3500 for an X Vario with an f/2 to f/2.8 lens and EVF than buy the current offering. Other people's mileage and opinions will vary. As others have tried to point out ... an f2 to f2.8 zoom lens is not an ergonomic or practical proposition on an APS-C compact camera. Few people seem to appreciate the fact and thus they continue to protest. Their protestations are unjustified because their wants are unreasonable. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfage Posted June 11, 2013 Share #1811 Posted June 11, 2013 "Their protestations are unjustified because their wants are unreasonable. " Sony didn't seem to think so... and theirs is full frame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 11, 2013 Share #1812 Posted June 11, 2013 A full frame Sony with a zoom? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnarayan Posted June 11, 2013 Share #1813 Posted June 11, 2013 As others have tried to point out ... an f2 to f2.8 zoom lens is not an ergonomic or practical proposition on an APS-C compact camera. The X Vario isn't exactly compact at all. It's not going to fit in a coat pocket. It's not really much smaller than the Fuji XE-1 (which has a faster kit lens, and EVF, and OIS). Compact Camera Meter Sometimes those attributes are subtle and not many people can appreciate them It's easy to call everyone complaining on FB lemmings who are merely under the bandwagon effect, rather than asking if you are merely delusional and so stuck in your old ways that you can't adapt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfage Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1814 Posted June 12, 2013 A full frame Sony with a zoom? Left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot? ... and I wouldn't call "that" zoom lens a real "feature". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1815 Posted June 12, 2013 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1816 Posted June 12, 2013 Irrationality is reaching new heights on this good old forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1817 Posted June 12, 2013 They probably cut the price to try and maintain market share which in the crowded market place is being sought by all the dog eat dog far east camera manufacturers. dunk If true, how will the new X Vario be able to avoid being affected by this? What about the X Vario makes it worth 3.5 times the price of a much more versatile Nex 6? The optional Leica EVF alone is $500 and not as good as the EVF in the Nex 6. A 28 to 70 zoom range is pretty restrictive to a lot of users. Anyone who is even somewhat in tune with cameras will know that having interchangeable lenses is a smarter way to invest in a camera. You hear Leica owners, and many others, saying over and over again that their investment in lenses is worth it so that they can periodically replace the bodies with new ones. On the other hand if someone walks into a Leica store with $3,000 in their pocket and wants to spend it on a camera, they can leave happy with an X Vario. Maybe a few who know cameras will see it as an answer for their needs. But as I stated elsewhere, some will proudly wear it as a badge that says, "I don't know much about photography, but I have some money." Is that the aspirational market Leica is targeting now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfage Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1818 Posted June 12, 2013 But as I stated elsewhere, some will proudly wear it as a badge that says, "I don't know much about photography, but I have some money." Is that the aspirational market Leica is targeting now? Sure. It's "man jewelry". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1819 Posted June 12, 2013 If true, how will the new X Vario be able to avoid being affected by this? What about the X Vario makes it worth 3.5 times the price of a much more versatile Nex 6? The optional Leica EVF alone is $500 and not as good as the EVF in the Nex 6. A 28 to 70 zoom range is pretty restrictive to a lot of users. Anyone who is even somewhat in tune with cameras will know that having interchangeable lenses is a smarter way to invest in a camera. You hear Leica owners, and many others, saying over and over again that their investment in lenses is worth it so that they can periodically replace the bodies with new ones. On the other hand if someone walks into a Leica store with $3,000 in their pocket and wants to spend it on a camera, they can leave happy with an X Vario. Maybe a few who know cameras will see it as an answer for their needs. But as I stated elsewhere, some will proudly wear it as a badge that says, "I don't know much about photography, but I have some money." Is that the aspirational market Leica is targeting now? That is true of all camera owners - not only those who buy Leica. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1820 Posted June 12, 2013 That is true of all camera owners - not only those who buy Leica. dunk No it is not. Walking around with most mirrorless or DSLR cameras is not going to send that message to anyone. (Whether they are good photographers or not.) And more than a few really good photographers have to struggle to pay for their cameras... whether Leicas or other brands. But they probably would not go for this one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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