wlaidlaw Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2061 Posted June 17, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) We need to know this , why? Because a lot of folks were saying that Leica in the VX made the only compact APS sensor camera with a zoom lens. The Ricoh post above shows that they do have competition. I have used Ricoh GX100 then 200 cameras for some years as a back up camera, as they were one of the very few compacts which took DNG's and had the option of a viewfinder. The only problem I found with them was higher ISO noise. The colour as someone else commented, was a tiny bit off with slightly too strong greens but could easily be corrected with a tweaked ICC in Capture One. I don't know how good the sensor in the GXR is in the noise and colour reproduction aspects. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 Hi wlaidlaw, Take a look here Mini M? [MERGED] AKA X-Vario. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Ruhayat Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2062 Posted June 17, 2013 Because a lot of folks were saying that Leica in the VX made the only compact APS sensor camera with a zoom lens. The Ricoh post above shows that they do have competition. I have used Ricoh GX100 then 200 cameras for some years as a back up camera, as they were one of the very few compacts which took DNG's and had the option of a viewfinder. The only problem I found with them was higher ISO noise. The colour as someone else commented, was a tiny bit off with slightly too strong greens but could easily be corrected with a tweaked ICC in Capture One. I don't know how good the sensor in the GXR is in the noise and colour reproduction aspects. Wilson I don't think people were saying no one else made zooms for mirrorless APS-C. God knows we're all too aware of the Sony Nexes, Fuji Axes and now the Ricoh GXR. No. What people have been saying is that it is the only APS-C camera with a FIXED zoom lens (the only other known one was a Sony and that was years ago). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2063 Posted June 17, 2013 I don't think people were saying no one else made zooms for mirrorless APS-C. God knows we're all too aware of the Sony Nexes, Fuji Axes and now the Ricoh GXR. No. What people have been saying is that it is the only APS-C camera with a FIXED zoom lens (the only other known one was a Sony and that was years ago). OK I see. However, touting a fixed lens as a USP seems a bit odd. It is exactly what puts me off the VX. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhayat Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2064 Posted June 17, 2013 OK I see. However, touting a fixed lens as a USP seems a bit odd. It is exactly what puts me off the VX. Wilson Peace of mind, really. Logical when you think that beginners and casual users often don't bother upgrading their kit zooms. My first Leica was the Digilux 2 and I shot that exclusively for 2 years without feeling like I was missing anything. And then I bought an M6TTL and, oh boy, it has been a never-ending journey of lens upgrades since. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2065 Posted June 17, 2013 I don't think people were saying no one else made zooms for mirrorless APS-C. God knows we're all too aware of the Sony Nexes, Fuji Axes and now the Ricoh GXR. No. What people have been saying is that it is the only APS-C camera with a FIXED zoom lens (the only other known one was a Sony and that was years ago). Just seen TWO Sony DSC-R1 APS-C compact zoom cameras listed by a well known UK dealer - one has the dedicated flash and the 1Kg supplementary tele lens which weighs as much as the camera. The camera was very innovative in its day (2005) especially for its 24-120mm (FF equivalent) f2.8/4.8 lens. The lens has a 67mm diameter filter thread which is very large compared to the X-Vario's 43mm. Dimensions are: X-Vario: 133x73x95mm , Sony DSC-R1: 139x168x97mm The X Vario is a much lighter and smaller camera which should be borne in mind by all those asking why it does not have an f2.8 lens. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2066 Posted June 17, 2013 Just seen TWO Sony DSC-R1 APS-C compact zoom cameras listed by a well known UK dealer - one has the dedicated flash and the 1Kg supplementary tele lens which weighs as much as the camera. The camera was very innovative in its day (2005) especially for its 24-120mm (FF equivalent) f2.8/4.8 lens. The lens has a 67mm diameter filter thread which is very large compared to the X-Vario's 43mm. Dimensions are: X-Vario: 133x73x95mm , Sony DSC-R1: 139x168x97mm The X Vario is a much lighter and smaller camera which should be borne in mind by all those asking why it does not have an f2.8 lens. dunk I dunno dunk. "Our new camera is lighter and smaller than one made 8 years ago, buuuut the lens is slower" isn't much of a peg to hang your marketing hat off. Which is may be why they reached for the Mini M tag? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2067 Posted June 17, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I dunno dunk. "Our new camera is lighter and smaller than one made 8 years ago, buuuut the lens is slower" isn't much of a peg to hang your marketing hat off. Which is may be why they reached for the Mini M tag? The Digilux 2 has two obvious limitations (they are limitations to me, anyway): smallish sensor and low sensor sensitivity. I personally find the new sensor much more important than the slower lens. The Mini M tag might derive from the simple fact that the body shape with its top plate looks very much like a smaller M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhayat Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2068 Posted June 17, 2013 The Digilux 2 has two obvious limitations (they are limitations to me, anyway): smallish sensor and low sensor sensitivity. I personally find the new sensor much more important than the slower lens. They each have their uses, I suppose. I quite liked the small sensor aesthetics... tonnes of DOF and pretty substantial grain by ISO400 has their own look and army of fans (myself included). I think the small sensor "look" emulated the "feel" of film very nicely compared to today's clean 3200 ISO monsters. Apart from the M I also shoot with a Canon 5D (for portraits) and Pentax K5 (for work). The K5 is superb, almost perfect each time, clean images - excellent for work, highly boring for personal stuff to me. I prefer my cameras with grain inside. Of course, these days if I want the look of B&W film I just shoot film. Heheh. So I don't use small sensor cameras anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2069 Posted June 17, 2013 I dunno dunk. "Our new camera is lighter and smaller than one made 8 years ago, buuuut the lens is slower" isn't much of a peg to hang your marketing hat off. Which is may be why they reached for the Mini M tag? OK ... but does anyone know exactly just how large a diameter a 'fixed' 18-46mm f2.8 (28-70mm f2.8 FF equivalent) lens would be on an APS-C compact camera? Surely it would cease to be compact camera and be more of a brick - like Sony's former offering. If there was a market for a faster aperture APS-C compact zoom camera twice the height of the X-Vario then Sony would probably have continued making one. The fact that Sony discontinued their model probably means it was too heavy and unwieldy by virtue of its f2.8 lens. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhayat Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2070 Posted June 17, 2013 You know, thinking about it, if Leica were to come out next with an X Monochrome with a fixed 50mm f2.5 lens, and film modes emulating Tri-X, T-Max and Pan, it would be a camera I would be MUCH interested in. An X Mono 50mm with an X Vario would likely cover all the photographic vision I have in my limited talents. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
onceuponatime Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2071 Posted June 17, 2013 APS-C competitors: Fujifilm XF 18-55mm f/2.8-4.0, filter size 58mm, length 71mm (110mm fully extended) Leica X Vario-Elmar 18-46mm f/3.5-6.4ASPH filter size 43mm, length 60mm (70mm fully extended) Digiulx2 69mm filter 135mm body width Xvario 43mm filter 133mm body width Digiulx2 Leica users generally say is one of the finest handling weighted digital cameras. Sigma 18-50mm f2.8, filter 67mm, length 85mm. 2004 Thus Leica could easily have put a 18-46mm f2.8 constant on Xvario and it would have had handling as Digilux2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
onceuponatime Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2072 Posted June 17, 2013 We need to see some XV image files made at ISO 3200 - and don't be surprised if they are good. One glowing preview http://petapixel.com/2013/06/16/review-leica-x-vario-defies-nay-sayers-with-impressive-optics/ "Sensor noise is well managed up to ISO 1600, and image degradation starts creeping in beyond ISO 3200. It becomes noticeable by ISO 6400." 70mm f6.4 i would be very interested to see Non daylight people walking , in slight motion (bar, restaurant, street) which iso & shutter. I would assume iso3200 1/45, 1/60. The review adds "Forget about grabbing the decisive moment with this camera – it is just too slow" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhayat Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2073 Posted June 17, 2013 Digiulx2 69mm filter 135mm body width Xvario 43mm filter 133mm body width Digiulx2 Leica users generally say is one of the finest handling weighted digital cameras. Yeah, and I for one am one of those Digilux 2 owners. I still have it in my little "camera museum", a little worse for wear, next to my Ricoh GRD v1, and Panasonic LC40 with the same Vario Summicron zoom range but in a different package. I still think it is THE classic compact fixed lens camera. It isn't perfect, as I kept posting in the Digilux 2 threads before: the body shape is thick and box-like rather than rounded; like the Fuji X-Pro it is just a bit too big (if the X Vario has the same body dimensions as the XE-1 it would be nearly perfect); and it doesn't have *just* that enough heft to counterbalance the metal lens. What's great about it is the ergonomics - everything important can be set using physical dials. Until I hold one in my hands, I can't say how the X Vario would live up to the venerable Digilux 2. But looking at comparison photos so far, I am encouraged. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2074 Posted June 17, 2013 One glowing preview Review: Leica X Vario Defies Naysayers with Impressive Optics"Sensor noise is well managed up to ISO 1600, and image degradation starts creeping in beyond ISO 3200. It becomes noticeable by ISO 6400." ... Wouldn't call it "glowing" in anything other than the engineering quality and the image quality. "Let’s be honest here – there are only two reasons why you are still reading this very negative review about the Leica Vario X." I agree on both points incidentally, it's beautifully made, and the images look lovely. The rest of the package doesn't float my boat at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2075 Posted June 17, 2013 Just seen TWO Sony DSC-R1 APS-C compact zoom cameras listed by a well known UK dealer - one has the dedicated flash and the 1Kg supplementary tele lens which weighs as much as the camera. The camera was very innovative in its day (2005) especially for its 24-120mm (FF equivalent) f2.8/4.8 lens. The lens has a 67mm diameter filter thread which is very large compared to the X-Vario's 43mm. Dimensions are: X-Vario: 133x73x95mm , Sony DSC-R1: 139x168x97mm The X Vario is a much lighter and smaller camera which should be borne in mind by all those asking why it does not have an f2.8 lens. dunk Since we are going down memory lane...The Konica/Minolta A2 came out in 2004 along with several other upmarket bridge cameras. So we can see what kind of layout and feature set was available 9 years ago. Konica/Minolta was bought by Sony and I think some of this DNA ended up in Sony cameras. I own one of these and think it is a pretty nice camera. The A2 is smaller than Sony's R1. It is limited by noise at higher ISOs (decent for its time) but has a great control system and wide ranging features. 28-200 (49mm diameter) equiv 2.8-3.5 lens, tilting 1MP EVF, IS... Despite some negative comments about resolution, I got very sharp and detailed images from this camera and used it on several assignments. Konica Minolta DiMAGE A2 Review: Digital Photography Review Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2076 Posted June 17, 2013 The Konica/Minolta A2 came out in 2004. Konica/Minolta was bought by Sony and I think some of this DNA ended up in Sony cameras. I own one of these and think it is a pretty nice camera. The A2 is smaller than Sony's R1. It is limited by slow AF and noise at higher ISOs (decent for its time) but has a great control system and wide ranging features. 28-200 (49mm diameter) equiv 2.8-3.5 lens, tilting 1MP EVF, IS... Konica Minolta DiMAGE A2 Review: Digital Photography Review The A2 has a 58mm² sensor compared to the R1's 380mm² sensor . The lenses are totally different designs dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2077 Posted June 17, 2013 Thus Leica could easily have put a 18-46mm f2.8 constant on Xvario and it would have had handling as Digilux2. If it had an 2/3rds sensor instead of APS-C....Lens size is closely linked to sensor size, as mentioned one or two times before in this thread... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 17, 2013 Share #2078 Posted June 17, 2013 The A2 has a 58mm² sensor compared to the R1's 380mm² sensor . The lenses are totally different designs dunk Yes that is probably the first APS fixed lens zoom camera but might not be considered to be compact. But what I'm getting at is that the A2 was a nice overall design and in my opinion they made good choices (compromises) between various aspects of image quality and overall size, weight, and performance for its time. Also, the Sony is very slow at shooting raw compared with the A2, lacked IS, and has an inferior EVF. The A2 has a lot of dials and buttons that allow for fast direct input. I think the A2 had the form and function for this type of camera down pretty long ago so it is clear the X-Vario does not break new ground in this department. It surely has much better image quality by virtue of a larger sensor and fine lens but lacks numerous features of the A2 and other models from "long ago." I think by merging the Konica/Minolta people and technology into Sony they were able to bring strengths from both companies into the development of more recent Sony models. Now that companies can put a larger sensor and shutter into a small body the limitation in making them more compact will be the lens size. (The body is about as small as you could want.) It also just occurred to me that Leica might not have access to a small enough focal plane shutter to use in an interchangeable lens compact APS camera. And if they went with a leaf shutter in each lens that would preclude M users from mounting M lenses on it. This is from the Leica press release on DPReview and does not say "fixed" zoom lens. My emphasis. Maybe their definition of a compact camera is one with a fixed lens despite some interchangeable lens APS cameras being smaller. ---------------------------- The X Vario’s high performance image sensor is unusually large for a camera in its class. Combined with the Leica Vario Elmar 18-46 mm f/3.5-6.4 ASPH, it sets completely new standards for imaging quality in the compact segment with outstanding exposures in all situations. The Leica X Vario is the world’s first compact camera to combine a large, APS-C format, CMOS image sensor with a zoom lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyg53 Posted June 18, 2013 Share #2079 Posted June 18, 2013 Review: Leica X Vario Defies Naysayers with Impressive Optics Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted June 18, 2013 Share #2080 Posted June 18, 2013 Thanks, interesting review. So, the question that comes to mind is that, from the color photos in the review, why does the color rendition seem to better than that of the M240? —Mitch/Bangkok Flickr: Mitch Alland's Photostream Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.